So how would you feel about being fingerprinted when selling

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 1:14AM

coins in california? Per coin world dated monday, june 21, starting on page 2, california state senate bill 1893, would require dealers to fingerprint anyone selling "old coins", even a single circulated indian cent, and hold all merchandise for 30 days before being able to offer it for resale.

Nice huh?

Tom

fcloud · June 12, 2004 1:30AM

Sounds like something I would expect from the Left Coast!!!

CarlWohlforth · June 12, 2004 1:30AM

It would probably put me out of business. I'd have to see the details and exactly what it means to me. Geez, you would think we were selling dynamite or something!

MS68 · June 12, 2004 1:35AM

What do you expect from the Peoples Republic of California? The politicians there won't be happy until they drive every business from the state.

jdimmick · June 12, 2004 1:35AM

Well that sucks!

That will put an end to the quick flops! Some of the best coins that I have purchased for re-sell from local dealers in my area were on the flop. Usually when a dealer has time to look at something closer, there goes any chance for catching them snoozing. In fact the last small collection of coins I bought on the flop, the dealer just added a few dollars on the price he just paid, and I grabbed an ran.

Just think, if the pawn shop marty found the 93-s Morgan would have had to wait 30 days to re-sell, he would have had more than an adequte time to look them up and so forth. But becuase he purchased them on the quick flop, he hit a grand slam and them some. Some of the variey collectors could loose out also.

As far as fingerprinting portion, I can understand the reasoning behind it, but thats just more of a pain and a paper trail.

jim

FrattLaw · June 12, 2004 1:37AM

I don't know if fingerprinting is the right answer, but if I were a dealer I would want to make sure that any collection that I bought wasn't stolen. Perhaps getting some information, ie., name, address, driver's license #, social security #, phone #, might be a better way of doing this. Fingerprints might be useless if the coins were stolen. Not everyone has their fingerprints in the national database -- yet.

If I were a theif and trying to fence some stolen coins I wouldn't want to give out any information. There will always be a fence to liquidate stolen merchandise through. Requiring ID, will make it harder on the inexperience theives and will protect the legitimate dealers as well as victims better.

The 30 day hold is a good idea. It will allow a claim to be made before the stolen coins are resold.

The best idea I've heard of is the Registry of Stolen Coins, where you can enter the cert #s and have the coins listed. All a dealer would have to do is check it against the registry and see if the coins come up hot or not.

I also think there should be a $$ value placed on these requirements -- perhaps $250 and above.

The California Legislature has a nice idea, just the wrong way of going about it.

Michael

FrattLaw · June 12, 2004 1:40AM

I also wanted to add ...

What about Ebay sales....are these excluded from the requirements?

Michael

Neptune · June 12, 2004 1:41AM

is that bill 'yet' to be voted on - or has it passed? If not voted on, I pray it doesn't pass, even though I am not a dealer and rarely sell coins - it's just 'one more thing' adding up in the list..........Thing is folks........... cancer spreads.

poptopsRus · June 12, 2004 1:42AM

3142

jbsteven · June 12, 2004 1:44AM

if this happens it will kill the Long Beach show.

I heard it was only when BUYING from retail people who walk up. Dealer to Dealer activity is not part of this. They want to classify coin dealers as pawn brokers.

mercurynut · June 12, 2004 1:46AM

Why stop there lets get a DNA sample..........

The madness!

Russ · June 12, 2004 1:50AM

Stupid idea, and way overboard. I see nothing wrong with requiring and recording identification information, though. Pawn shops are required to do this, and I already do it whenever I buy coins, (or anything), from individuals locally.

Russ, NCNE

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 2:21AM

<< I also wanted to add ...

What about Ebay sales....are these excluded from the requirements?

Michael >>

michael, the state of california has the wrong idea. But slick lawyers in the legislature will probably find a way to word it so "it makes sense" to those who haven't a clue.

Then of course how would other "states" react?

Personally I don't care what the "state" decides.

It's a freedom issue isn't it.

Tom

Lakesammman · June 12, 2004 2:35AM

I'm as right wing as anyone and think it's a dumb idea. On the other hand, these guys don't come up with these ideas out of the blue. It's likely being proposed to solve a problem. Since it's a Senate bill, it's time for those of you in Ca. to write your Senators, explain why it's a bad bill and, better yet, propose a better solution. Isn't Kagin in Ca?? Does anyone know how to get ahold of him?? As a Gov. of the ANA, he is probably on it already with the backing of the ANA. If not, they should be!

FrattLaw · June 12, 2004 2:38AM

<< It's a freedom issue isn't it. >>

I'm not seeing how this is a freedom issue?

Care to elaborate?

Michael

291fifth · June 12, 2004 2:42AM

If passed, it would mark the end of the coin business in California.

JamminJ · June 12, 2004 2:44AM

Yet another law to ignore in California.

-JamminJ

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 2:44AM

<< 

<< It's a freedom issue isn't it. >>

I'm not seeing how this is a freedom issue?

Care to elaborate?

Michael >>

Not a freedom issue? More government involved in business and lives, taking money from us to support it's various interests has nothing to do with freedom?

Jeez

Tom

DAM · June 12, 2004 2:49AM

If the laws were designed to punish those committing the crimes, instead of giving "timeouts" for everything, it likely wouldn't be necessary to suggest such ridiculous solutions.

Wack 'em a good one!!!!!!!!!!!!

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 2:51AM

<< If the laws were designed to punish those committing the crimes, instead of giving "timeouts" for everything, it likely wouldn't be necessary to suggest such ridiculous solutions.

Wack 'em a good one!!!!!!!!!!!! >>

They're not ridiculous solutions. They're very well thought out plans on how to take and control more.

And they are "wacking" us pretty good and this will certainly get "better".

Tom

Topdollarpaid · June 12, 2004 2:52AM

California is realy starting to Suck. An antique dealer was in the shop friday and was telling me that the antique shops may have to start fingerprinting also..

Let me tell you the idea of fingerprinting every seller wont work.

I think that the old timers will turn and walk out of the shop. Why?

Because its to personal, not because its hot.

Pass this law and the fences will do just fine.

But the honest dealers will be closing up shop or leaving California.

One More Reason To leave California

FrattLaw · June 12, 2004 2:58AM

<< taking money from us to support it's various interests >>

I'm not sure where you got this from? I haven't read the article, does it say there will be increased taxes to cover the costs of implementing the system?

As for the "government" being involved, there is a legitimate governmental interest. They want to curtail the selling of stolen goods. As Russ pointed out, most pawn shops are required to take information from sellers. If you sell a car, you must pass clear title and the used car lot will run a DMV check on the car's identification number as well as the plates. I doubt this law will kill the legitimate coin dealers. Those known for accepting stolen goods to make a quick profit might have a hard time.

As a dealer, if you bought and sold coins stolen from me, you certainly would be in court tied to a lawsuit wherein I'm asking for reimbursement for my loss. I doubt dealers really want to defend themselves in court over this sort of thing. I would think this rarely happens, but it recently happened to a dealer I know. He might be out $10,000+ legal fees on a deal he did.

If you had your coins stolen, I'm sure you'd be in support of this bill. I know I would. It won't stop the smarter theives, they just fense out side the state, but it will make it harder for the less professional theives to move stolen coins.

If you want to complain about governmental invasion into your civil liberties, go look at the Patriot Act and what effect that law has had in regards to your Constitutional rights.

Edited to add: I agree I don't like the fingerprinting, but I think taking background information that is already a part of public databases doesn't really violate your right to privacy.

Michael

Topdollarpaid · June 12, 2004 3:04AM

Taking Identification is no problem, Fingerprints is a who nother story

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 3:04AM

<< 

<< taking money from us to support it's various interests >>

I'm not sure where you got this from? I haven't read the article, does it say there will be increased taxes to cover the costs of implementing the system?

No of course. It's "free".

As for the "government" being involved, there is a legitimate governmental interest. They want to curtail the selling of stolen goods. As Russ pointed out, most pawn shops are required to take information from sellers. If you sell a car, you must pass clear title and the used car lot will run a DMV check on the car's identification number as well as the plates. I doubt this law will kill the legitimate coin dealers. Those known for accepting stolen goods to make a quick profit might have a hard time.

Right. Sure. We NEED more regulations to keep us free and safe.

As a dealer, if you bought and sold coins stolen from me, you certainly would be in court tied to a lawsuit wherein I'm asking for reimbursement for my loss.

Depending on the circumstance, you would have an uphill battle on your hands.

If you had your coins stolen, I'm sure you'd be in support of this bill. I know I would. It won't stop the smarter theives, they just fense out side the state, but it will make it harder for the less professional theives to move stolen coins.

Right, then it's for the "common good". Hooray.

If you want to complain about governmental invasion into your civil liberties, go look at the Patriot Act and what effect that law has had in regards to your Constitutional rights.
Michael >>

TextText

Many laws are against the principles of the Constitution.

Tom

Michael >>

TextText

RYK · June 12, 2004 3:23AM

I am more concerned about the 30 day hold part of the provision. If I were a big Calirornia dealer, I might look to locate a small office in another state just to get around this. Or act as a "broker" and match the buyer and seller for a commission rather than buying the coin outright. Or sell coins on consignment. There will probably be a number of ways to get around this.

prooflike · June 12, 2004 3:29AM

The question is, how do they define dealer? Also, what is an old coin? In my area I regularly get quarters in the 60s(clad of course).

RYK · June 12, 2004 3:39AM

Or maybe the dealer will purchase the coin for face value and buy a pencil from the seller for the difference in price (like the ticket scalpers do).

Craton · June 12, 2004 3:53AM

In Wasington ... or at least in Yakima Washington they have been doing this stuff for years. No fingerprints but they take your drivers license number and they hold your items for a certain amount of time before they can sell it. I have no problem with it if it helps cut down on crime. This world we live in is full of chit bags and if it will deter someone from stealing a collection and trying to pawn them, I'm all for it.

topstuf · June 12, 2004 4:00AM

This ....WAS..... California law for a short time when I first opened the shop. It was modified to exempt bullion and coins as they can be classified as "investments" and the number of class action lawsuits for market losses due to time would be enormous.

Almost all California coin shops (if they also accept scrap gold) are required to have a "Secondhand Dealer License" which requires daily reporting of purchases of identifiable personal property. When we added the pawn license, it also applied to loans.

However, PAWNING a coin (rather than selling) still requires a fingerprint and signed statement to be reported. ALL pawns are reportable.

I doubt it will pass. Sometimes it seems that these laws are suggested to legislators by the dealer orgainizations to drum up some extra contributions by members. I am sure that were I still in bizz in CA, I would be inundated with warnings of this law and would be writing checks just to CMA.

I would LOVE to be the lawyer who got a class action case for losses incurred from a 30 day hold on coins or bullion.

IF.....it did pass, then yes there would be no coin business in California. And from the amount of sales tax we paid, I don't think they want to lose that.

A far more dangerous threat to the coin business is the constant .....national...... efforts to get sales taxes to apply for interstate as well as intrastate sales. California also has an exemption from sales tax for coin purchases over $1000. (which is also considered a "gray" area by some)

DEATH AN TAXES.

GOLDSAINT · June 12, 2004 4:03AM

One of these days all these little communists that reside in the state of California
are going to get exactly what they deserve, total social and economic failure. What really is frightening is that these little pinko’s won’t stay in there own state. They have nearly ruined Washington State and Oregon.

topstuf · June 12, 2004 4:06AM

I might add that I did take ID from coin sellers but did not "report" it. I just kept it on hand IN CASE some dork sold me stolen coins so I could produce evidence that I required them to state to me in writing that THEY were the legal owners. VERY few stolen coins ever came in.

And if you want an exercise in futility, call the police and report stolen COINS. If you can't ID it, they don't want it. Slabs ....could.... be identifiable, but I can't imagine a crook leaving the coins in a numbered holder.

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 4:09AM

<< One of these days all these little communists that reside in the state of California
are going to get exactly what they deserve, total social and economic failure. What really is frightening is that these little pinko’s won’t stay in there own state. They have nearly ruined Washington State and Oregon. >>

Yeh, well guess what? That ideology has won, locally to nationally and most people actually support it. Whether they realize it or not is another story.

Tom

topstuf · June 12, 2004 4:14AM

Goldsaint.... I can imagine how you feel that way. I feel the same way about the immigrants TO California. I am a native Californian as were my parents. OUR "bad apples" frequently come from OTHER states and in fact it has become a "movie cliche" to see the flops all head for California to "start over."

I can also imagine the impact in Oregon and Washington of the Californians who flee to there....AND....take their damned "superior attitude" with them. If they are as obnoxious there as they are here, you ought to hang em.

California is no bed of legal roses....that's for sure.

But......IF...... I leave, it WILL be for Oregon or Washington.

"Hey, dewwwd, sorry if I messed up yer meal with my cell phone, man."

GOLDSAINT · June 12, 2004 4:37AM

As a student of history, it is totally bewildering to me, how our Western states ended up in with such communistic and socialistic attitudes. What in the world ever happened to the great pioneer sprit that built these great states? Those courageous self-reliant individuals that moved West to escape the rigorous controls of government. Even as far south as Texas this attitude of watching and being involved in all your neighbors business has infiltrated like a diseases. No communist or socialist society has ever seceded in remaining a world leader for a substantial amount of time, and it is truly a shame to see America and many of its states opt for that philosophy of “ My neighbor owes me and I want to collect, and what effects him effects me so I want to regulate him”

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 4:41AM

<< As a student of history, it is totally bewildering to me, how our Western states ended up in with such communistic and socialistic attitudes. What in the world ever happened to the great pioneer sprit that built these great states? Those courageous self-reliant individuals that moved West to escape the rigorous controls of government. Even as far south as Texas this attitude of watching and being involved in all your neighbors business has infiltrated like a diseases. No communist or socialist society has ever seceded in remaining a world leader for a substantial amount of time, and it is truly a shame to see America and many of its states opt for that philosophy of “ My neighbor owes me and I want to collect, and what effects him effects me so I want to regulate him” >>

Goldsaint, it's not just the western states who have adopted this ideology. It's the country as a whole.

So unfortunate that few even realize it.

Rgrds
Tom

DAM · June 12, 2004 4:49AM

<< As a student of history, it is totally bewildering to me, how our Western states ended up in with such communistic and socialistic attitudes. What in the world ever happened to the great pioneer sprit that built these great states? Those courageous self-reliant individuals that moved West to escape the rigorous controls of government. Even as far south as Texas this attitude of watching and being involved in all your neighbors business has infiltrated like a diseases. No communist or socialist society has ever seceded in remaining a world leader for a substantial amount of time, and it is truly a shame to see America and many of its states opt for that philosophy of “ My neighbor owes me and I want to collect, and what effects him effects me so I want to regulate him” >>

It's no longer about majoirty rule "the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few", it's all about "my needs".

Can you say; squeeky wheel gets the grease, or ACLU, or left wing judges masquerading acting as legislators?

Dog97 · June 12, 2004 9:12AM

An honest law abiding citizen that has nothing to hide shouldn't mind it at all if it helps cuts down on coin crime.
Coins don't kill people. People kill people.
(Sarcasm button off now.)

edited for spl

K6AZ · June 12, 2004 9:29AM

Just another California law to drive business out of the state. There is some stiff opposition to this bill, headed by Barry Stuppler. For anyone who wants to read the full text of this bag o' worms, here it is:

SB 1893

Dog97 · June 12, 2004 9:46AM

prooflike wants the term "dealer" & "old coin" defined. Dealer is a shift beady eyed weasel that sells coins on Yahoo & eBay auctions. An old coin is one that was made last year & because it has last year's date on it and not this year's date that makes it old.

lloydmincy · June 12, 2004 1:04PM

How can we chop California's borders, and let it float into the Pacific???

mrearlygold · June 12, 2004 1:31PM

<< How can we chop California's borders, and let it float into the Pacific??? >>

A better start would be to chop off washington dc and just let it float off into the atlantic ocean.

Tom

So how would you feel about being fingerprinted when selling

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