Im sorry, but NGC is PITIFUL!

wallstreetman · June 5, 2004 4:02PM

At Long Beach today I was offered an 1879 S Morgan Rev78 NGCMS66(Eliasberg) for $30,000, I think he said this is a POP/1 coin and would fetch $50,000 if offered to the right person!(Yeah, a total blithering idiot.)! The coin was a 65 on its best day looking at the Obverse, I then realized why he was'nt so quick to show me the Reverse, I flipped it over and almost barfed. Let me tell you, I've never seen a Morgan with more hairlines(THIS IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT)! This coin would never in a million years make it into a PCGS slab! I dont want to name any names, especially since I really enjoyed this guys company, but the coin is so ridiculous that Im sure a few of you must know who owns this coin. Question: Does'nt NGC look at the Reverse when grading a coin?

FrattLaw · June 5, 2004 4:11PM

Anyone want to guess how long before FanofModerns shows up to add his thoughts?

Michael

lordmarcovan · June 5, 2004 4:13PM

Nobody's perfect. I had a Peace dollar in a PCGS MS65 slab once, that had a big gash on the forehead. And I mean big. Had no business being in a 65 holder.

michael · June 5, 2004 4:17PM

sounds to me

like this coin would not pass a michael test which has nothing to do with the plastic only the coin

i think overall the coin is of utmost importance

i usually do a michael test for a coin i see in a ngc/pcgs holder if i like it and i like the price then it is a good coin to me

myself i only like coins in pcgs/ngc holders that pass the michael test............ most do not pass................................. some do!

michael

wallstreetman · June 5, 2004 4:21PM

You have to admit, I have'nt been talking down NGC like I use too(guess it got old), but this coin was SOOOOOOO bad that I just had to say something! If I were NGC, I would give anything the seller wanted to take it out of the publics eye!

islemangu · June 5, 2004 4:38PM

PITIFUL

thats a little harsh.... there are outlier undergrades and overgrades from all grading companies as there is the human factor.
Some do better than others just because they are more consistant on grading (fewer outliers on average) .
Customer service, turnaround times and pricing are factors too but secondary to consistant grading.

BigD5 · June 5, 2004 8:42PM

Without seeing the coin, passing judgement is impossible, BUT I will say that I've seen too many of those Eliasberg coins that I would never want to own from an eye appeal or grade standpoint. Both services seem to be very liberal in how they graded that material. With "seem" being the key word, as I haven't seen ALL of the coins. Just going by the limited amount I have been able to see.

roadrunner · June 5, 2004 9:37PM

There were 19th type coins in both PCGS and NGC holders at the Heritage LB sale that didn't even bring blue sheet. In one case, about 30% under BS! It's becoming more and more the coin itself.
AT some point, those pretenders will be totally unsaleable except at the lower grade. Be aware.

roadrunner

Barry · June 5, 2004 9:38PM

I have a key date Eliasberg Seated Dime. It's clearly an XF-40 cleaned, graded as a VF-25 by PCGS. I also have an overgraded 1883 nickel with an Eliasberg pedigree.

Both companies have different standards for pedigrees.

roadrunner · June 5, 2004 9:40PM

Maybe a welcomed end to the crack out game in some respects?
If you aren't assured of getting at least half of the money to the next grade it might not be worth the risk in the future.

roadrunner

darktone · June 5, 2004 10:04PM

they all do this- I have owned PCGS MS65+ $5 libs with cleaning hairlines as well. mike

Bustman · June 5, 2004 10:14PM

There are plenty of overgraded coins in NGC and PCGS holders. Thats why you HAVE to know what you are doing!!

boiler78 · June 5, 2004 10:24PM

WSM- That particular coin sold at Eliasberg in a bulk lot with 22 other Morgans. I remember it well because it seems everyone tought they were going to rip the coin

not! I just checked my lot viewing notes and I graded the coin 65 pl with a specific mention of moderate die polish lines on the reverse. I haven't seen the coin since the auction but is it possible that the hairlines you mention are actually die polish lines? Not that the coin couldn't have hairlines in addition to the die polish lines but sometimes it is hard to tell the difference

IrishMike · June 5, 2004 10:37PM

Given wallstreet's knowledge of coins and love for NGC, I would guess they are die polish lines and not hairlines. I'd also bet that he isn't the least bit sorry. I'd take it to the bank that boiler has a more accurate description of the coin.

jbsteven · June 5, 2004 10:42PM

i was thinking die polish marks also.

nOoBiEeE · June 5, 2004 11:45PM

Every company makes mistakes, live with it, I have to. Wallstreetman, here is a pic of a what PCGS considers FS, the red marks are the nicks. Doesn't PCGS look at the Reverse when grading a coin:

wallstreetman · June 5, 2004 11:56PM

I dont know about some of you but I know the difference between lines from the Mint and lines from a well intentioned and uninformed newbie! The dealer even admitted the hairlines when he saw the look on my face! Try again Mike!

RotatedRainbows · June 6, 2004 12:00AM

<< Anyone want to guess how long before FanofModerns shows up to add his thoughts?

Michael >>

There you go now you ruined it and he won't log on with that screen name.

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 12:09AM

boiler, We must be thinking of two different coins! How many were graded 66?

K6AZ · June 6, 2004 12:18AM

Do you think this is any better?

boiler78 · June 6, 2004 12:20AM

WSM- I am not sure I understand your question. All the Eliasberg coins were raw when they sold at auction in 96/97 and there was only one 1879-s rev of 78 in the sale.

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 12:22AM

K6AZ, Yes, compared to the coin I saw, that looks 68!

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 12:26AM

All I can say is, this Eliasberg coin has hairlines galore!

braddick · June 6, 2004 12:36AM

Wallstreetman, if you're interested in taking it a step past posting a grievance here on the PCGS forum, be aware that NGC offers an "ASK NGC" Forum across the street.
It's moderated and most, if not all questions are answered, such as yours, in a pretty timely fashion.

That, of course, if only you're interested in getting NGC's answer to your concern.

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 12:39AM

I guess its a fairly recent cleaning then if it was'nt that way in 96!

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 12:47AM

Pat, I get slammed enough over here by those guys! Maybe someone can come up with a picture of this coin. I will see if I can get the # from the slab. I want everyone to see the coin I saw and then make a judgment!

braddick · June 6, 2004 12:58AM

<< Pat, I get slammed enough over here by those guys! Maybe someone can come up with a picture of this coin. I will see if I can get the # from the slab. I want everyone to see the coin I saw and then make a judgment! >>

Could be, I'm not aware, but the "Ask NGC" Forum is moderated and the questions ONLY answered by a member of the NGC staff. Now, no promises though what'll happen after they post your question with an answer!

But all kidding aside, it sounds like you've got a legitimate beef. Yours isn't the only complaint I've heard of some of these Pedigreed holders. Some of the Binion Morgans are equally as appalling.

dbldie55 · June 6, 2004 1:19AM

NGC certainly does suck. That is why all of my former NGC coins are in PCGS holders now. Of course, they all have the same grade so by WSM's standards, PCGS must suck too.

I also have an Eliasberg coin. It is also clearly over graded. (actually two of his and both were over graded). Both are in PCGS holders too!

If we are rating a company off of small samples, I guess that means PCGS really sucks based on my coins.

K6AZ · June 6, 2004 1:58AM

Both NGC and PCGS give bumps to pedigreed coins. I think part of it is trying to be the grading company to have the prestige of having these coins in their holders. As Pat mentioned, this also occurs on the Binion coins, and I am sure it will happen with the Fitzgerald/Reno hoard.

The PCGS 66 I posted earlier is no 66. Look at the three deep reeding marks in the upper left field. This grading based on the scarcity of the coin also works the other way. If that reverse of 78 was a reverse of 79, you would see that coin in a MS64 holder. In my opinion, it's a 65.

Russ · June 6, 2004 2:11AM

Good thing there's no grossly overgraded coins in PCGS holders.

Wallstreetman,

I'm curious. Are you an idiot in real life, or do you just play one on an internet forum?

Russ, NCNE

Shamika · June 6, 2004 2:34AM

<< Both companies have different standards for pedigrees. >>

I've also noticed this practice.

<< Both NGC and PCGS give bumps to pedigreed coins. >>

Have you seen some of the Buffalo nickels out of the Benson collection? As far as I know, all of them were graded by PCGS and many of them are a full grade over what they should be.

DHeath · June 6, 2004 2:47AM

Wallstreetman, if you're interested in taking it a step past posting a grievance here on the PCGS forum, be aware that NGC offers an "ASK NGC" Forum across the street.
It's moderated and most, if not all questions are answered, such as yours, in a pretty timely fashion.

That, of course, if only you're interested in getting NGC's answer to your concern.

Pat, thanks for the opportunity to post how well that works.

I spent most of yesterday photographing a recently returned NGC order, and as I looked at the coins, I disagreed with the designation of two of the coins (cam/ucam), and wondered why two of the others didn't qualify for the star designation. I asked for clarification, and included good pictures. One of the graders answered my questions last night. Geez, you work all week grading coins, and answer questions on a weekend night?

In truth, I asked hoping to learn something. I did. My submitted coins weren't expensive, so I won't send them for a second look, although that was offered (very nice of him). Maybe I was right, maybe I wasn't. Who knows. It's just opinion, and theirs is the one I paid for. I expect it's more useful for me to understand their opinion than the other way around.

WSM, I think it's more reasonable to assume a team of three professional numismatists, former dealers, and full-time graders have the more credible opinion regarding the coin you described as "rediculous". There are dogs in EVERY holder, but do the mirror test. Ask yourself in a private place with no distractions while looking in the mirror whether you really believe your opinion of the coin is more informed than theirs regarding the grade. Whether you like the coin for the grade, or for the price is another issue, but I find it more useful to learn from the credible TPG's than to imply how inept they are. I've gotten to meet some of the folks at PCGS/NGC/ANACS, and I respect their skills. Your post underestimates them.

ibzman350 · June 6, 2004 2:51AM

Russ...

"Wallstreetman,

I'm curious. Are you an idiot in real life, or do you just play one on an internet forum?

Russ, NCNE "

braddick · June 6, 2004 2:52AM

Don,
Don't feel too bad... I walked 13 NGC coins, all I thought deserving of the STAR through NGC at the show on Thursday, and picked them up Saturday to see only TWO bumped up to the STAR! Dang- I've gotta check my eyesight!
The cool deal here though is I also had NGC flip-in-holder two wonderfully toned Kennedies, reverse toned side up, and also had a 1972-D Kennedy in MS67 (a bit of a tougher coin) that had an insert for a .25c. NGC not only didn't charge me for fixing the .25c to .50c insert/slab but also comped me the full order of sixteen coins, saving me $160.00.

That's customer service! To go over and beyond what they needed to.

roadrunner · June 6, 2004 6:37AM

Sometimes a 5-10 second look by 3 different professional graders, under less than ideal conditions, is not up to the scrutiny of a 3 minute look by any seasoned amateur specialist. The addition to millions of moderns to the mix has resulted in the "dumbing" down of the grading services when it comes to the pre-1916 classics.

roadrunner

BigMoose · June 6, 2004 6:57AM

If anyone is interested, the coin in question by wallstreetman is on the Northeast Numismatics website under Dollars and there is a good scan of the coin. The lines throughout the lower reverse of the coin look like classic Die Polish lines to me and not hairlines. Boiler, I think your assessment of a 65PL grade from your notes of the Eliasberg Sale is quite accurate. TomT.

jeffnpcb · June 6, 2004 7:13AM

Norweb Hibernia, Lincoln PR70Dcam, 2-cent shield, 04' Jefferson with a BTW label, etc.,etc., etc.!!!!! Both companies have good and bad days. Also, it appears that particular strikes also carry consideration on grades now more than ever. Over the past several years, and we are talking within the past ten years of grading, more and more new designations and considerations are proving that a grade is a grade because of the year, mintage site, dies, type of machinery are adjusting the thought of graders on setting a grade with designations.
I guess you would need several of the same grade coins in hand to justify your statement.

PS: What the crap am I talking about? An Eliasberg through any grading company gets a 2 point bump!

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 8:14AM

BigMoose, just by your description of the lower reverse, I would say were not talking about the same coin! Look for a coin that has been rubbed around the center. Do you have a link to this coin?

IrishMike · June 6, 2004 8:33AM

IrishMike · June 6, 2004 8:36AM

Description from their website. The lines look raised to me.

Reverse of '78, ex-Eliasberg.Fully brilliant and like a headlight. Population one, finest known!! This coin is of significant numismatic importance. We note that PCGS has not graded any Proof-like specimens above the 64 level, with NGC only one in 65 and this lone specimen in 66, A pedigree that cannot be beaten, and finest known!. Wholesale grey sheet bid is at $45,000. And this is the price for a non proof like. Needless to say an excellent value.

maddogale · June 6, 2004 8:42AM

no way that is a 66!!

jbsteven · June 6, 2004 8:42AM

the coin above looks like die polish.

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 8:45AM

Like I said, thats not the coin! Not many cleaned coins that I have seen have the straight lines of Die Polishing, this coin is classic! The coin I saw was polished within the branches, it did not fall below.

darktone · June 6, 2004 8:50AM

Obviously die polishing caused the lines- I thought only one of these had this pedigree? mike

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 9:06AM

For the record, Out of the 1000's of coins that I,ve submitted, I've only had one that got BB for hairlines, it was a 1935 S San Diego(Lines could not be seen without magnification). The other was a 96 Silver Eagle that was so light I thought it would pass. My only other questionable coin was a 58 3 Cent Silver that DNC because of color. Tell me, do you think Franklins come with Die Polish Lines?

Oh, and the IHC that was dipped! 3014130 Zip 91710

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 9:08AM

<< I thought only one of these had this pedigree? mike >>

Obviously not!

IrishMike · June 6, 2004 9:23AM

Uh, its a POP 1 coin.

darktone · June 6, 2004 10:09AM

<< I've only had one that got BB for hairlines, it was a 1935 S San Diego(Lines could not be seen without magnification). >>

The San Diego is known for heavy die polishing that resembles hairlines. mike

boiler78 · June 6, 2004 10:59AM

WSM- Are you absolutely sure the NEN coin is not the same coin you were offered at Long Beach? I can't imagine the odds that there are 2 NGC 66 Eliasberg 1879-s rev of 78 Morgan dollars when NGC pops list this as a pop 1 and there was only one coin in the Eliasberg sale back in 97?

Shamika · June 6, 2004 12:13PM

<< do you think Franklins come with Die Polish Lines? >>

Yes.

wallstreetman · June 6, 2004 12:58PM

<< 

<< do you think Franklins come with Die Polish Lines? >>

Yes. >>

You better believe they do!

boiler, I looked at that coin for a while. Im going to get to the bottom of this, its killing me!

Im sorry, but NGC is PITIFUL!

Comments

Leave a Comment