<< <i>I believe it is trivially easy for us to create several additional ebay ID's and use them all to report to ebay about this guy. Maybe if there's enough volume then ebay will do something to this guy.
Why isn't the secret service involved? Isn't that one of their jobs?
Will coin world and Numismatic news do a story on this??
<< <i>Hey, this guy is in my backyard!!!! If anyone needs any "legal" help with this seller, let me know. I'm sure a friendly certified letter, followed by a phone call from an attorney might give him a cause to rethink what he is doing to people.
While Ebay might not provide protection, small claims court or possibly Superior Court would. If he's defrauding people intentionally, you might be able to collect up to treble damages.
PM me if you need some help, Michael >>
Now why in the world would a lawyer be needed on this? This is a civil matter?
It's criminal is it not? Where is the secret service and the state attorneys office in california? Playing golf?
Did anybody else notice that eBay has removed TDN's negative feedback from this seller's profile? It would seem to me that, from a legalese standpoint, that would be considered an "affirmative" action that could negate their argument that they are nothing more than a third party conduit.
<< <i>Did anybody else notice that eBay has removed TDN's negative feedback from this seller's profile? It would seem to me that, from a legalese standpoint, that would be considered an "affirmative" action that could negate their argument that they are nothing more than a third party conduit.
Russ, NCNE >>
certainly needs to be supplied to the state attorneys office in California.
<< <i>It's criminal is it not? Where is the secret service and the state attorneys office in california? >>
It probably isn't criminal. And to prove the conduct was criminal would be a monumental hill to climb for a DA. There's little chance that the Secret Service of the AG's office will get involved in such a small matter. This is a private issue between 2 people -- that's why it really is a civil issue.
Russ -- very interesting and you make a great point. Ebay has gone beyond being a conduit. I suppose if someone buys the fake $9000.00 trade dollar now, they MIGHT have a claim that Ebay removed a feedback that could have warned other potential buyers not to buy the coin thus endorsing the sale of a counterfeit. Interesting angle, but not sure if there's enough to file a lawsuit over -- yet. Ebay's smart about this and they have a team of lawyers looking over these types of situations. Not to say that a lawyer has okayed this move, but I would guess that the removal of feedback in general has been looked at by an attorney and a policy developed when Ebay can or cannot remove feedback.
Michael- I agree with you that something should be done to stop fraudulant items from being sold on Ebay. Maybe the answer is as Cladking suggests: "Possibly eliminating the sale of raw coins over $250" Exceptions would have to be made on items like rolls of Morgans, and bullion gold. The main problem I see with this is that many people will just not want to take the time to send in their coins to a TPGS and then Ebay will lose out on the revenue from the lost auctions. I don't see Ebay agreeing to this unless they have to and that will not happen in my opinion unless they lose some major legal battles in the future where they see that option as the only one left.
I spoke with Barry Stuppler quite some time ago regarding the sale of bogus/fake/misleading/fraudulent (copies of) coins on Ebay. It was my understanding that he and/or someone with the ANA had already been in contact with Ebay.
Supposedly, an effort was going to be made to have a central reporting conduit of some type, wherein people could report bogus offerings, the idea/hope being that the reports would be screened and forwarded to a (don't laugh) (cooperative) Ebay. I will try to speak to Barry at Long Beach and get some sort of update.
David -- Ebay has in the past and continue to refuse to allow auctions of certain items. Most know you can't sell a kidney on Ebay, but most don't realize that certain radio scanners are not allowable based upon the fact they can be modified to intercept and evesdrop on cellular phone conversations. Also pirated music and software are a big no-no on Ebay. Why then is it okay to sell overgraded, AT junk coins that are over-hyped and a possible cause of fraud?
The difference is pressure. Someone has to apply pressure to Ebay in order for them to change their policies. Granted a few lawsuits might do the trick. And in 2000, the FTC stated that an online auction company could be held responsible for not policing their site. The question remains -- does Ebay do enough to protect themselves legally. I think the answer is yes. They bought Paypal, they offer mediation for deals gone bad, they allow you to insure your purchase through Paypal, they do investigate a certain percentage of auctions. Remember coins are not the biggest area of fraudulent activity on Ebay. Ebay's very well versed at defending itself now. I think suing Ebay would be a huge waste of time.
If there's going to be any change in Ebay, it'll most likely come from a business partnership with another market leader. That's why I suggested that they hook up with a PCGS/NGC/ANACS to serve as an official TPG. Good for the TPG, good for Ebay. It kinda forces people to use their retail stores. Less fraud means more transactions = more money for Ebay. If they are that dumb not to see that, then well ....
They could also institute a policy of no raw coins unless you are a PowerSeller or perhaps not less then a 95% positive rating with more than 1000 transactions. It's possible, it just takes some creative thought and a little pressure.
If the leaders in the coin industry lobbied Ebay for change, I'm sure they could make it happen.
<< <i>I spoke with Barry Stuppler quite some time ago regarding the sale of bogus/fake/misleading/fraudulent (copies of) coins on Ebay. It was my understanding that he and/or someone with the ANA had already been in contact with Ebay.
Supposedly, an effort was going to be made to have a central reporting conduit of some type, wherein people could report bogus offerings, the idea/hope being that the reports would be screened and forwarded to a (don't laugh) (cooperative) Ebay. I will try to speak to Barry at Long Beach and get some sort of update. >>
If they want to it is an easy fix. I think that would work.
Track complaints and when a seller reaches 2,3, or what ever # is chosen complaint level then they are investigated.
Once one of these people are investigated it isn't difficult to see a pattern of abuse.
I'm sorry to hear about your NARU, Bruce ... but not surprised. It seems to me that eBay generally won't respond to a fraudulent auction unless at least three people complain and more than 24 hours remain on the auction. If the seller is a "PowerSeller" they're pretty much immune. On the other hand, they appear more serious about going after shills than frauds.
Michael offers some interesting suggestions that are worth exploring. As others have pointed out, though, unless someone who is "a big gun" backs it, I doubt such a effort will accomplish anything other than shutting down one auction at a time or NARU'ing one scammer at a time.
Nonetheless, eBay has set a couple of precedents over monitoring auctions. They monitor for Nazi items, scanners, etc. Certainly if someone asserts fraud and sends them evidence (like obscured "COPY" markings), they should at least be obliged to suspend the auction while they investigate. Maybe if the accusations prove false, the complainant could be charged the seller's auction fees.
Since the Hobby Protection Act is federal law, it might also be possible to enlist PCGS to establish a relationship between CU and an appropriate representative to contact with suitable evidence. Unfortunately, as we learned several years ago smoking out a character selling a fake 1804 dollar as the real thing, the Feds currently don't bother with "small change" fraud that might cost more to investigate and prosecute than would be lost by the victim. It could well be, though, that having a dedicated investigative professional to go to might generate some positive press for the appropriate agency and scare the chickensh*t out of many of the small-time frauds.
EBAY doesnt have time to check EVERY item on their site to verify an items' authenticity. You guys (gals) and I are probably much more knowledgable on coins than the average other 250 Million Americans. If I was told to bid on the Betsy Ross american flag, I'll tell you right now, you could grab one from K-Mart and I wouldnt know if it was made in 1776 but preserved well or made in 2004. (Maybe the number of stars would give it away). PT Barnum's phrase will work for ages. Let the buyer beware. Some are going to get burned. Some will learn their lesson and do their homework the next time they purchase. Furthermore, it will catch up to those that continue to try and defraud sooner or later. Remember "The Collector", Bruce McNall???? He bought the LA Kings, Wayne Gretzky, and had MOST of the COIN UNIVERSE fooled. Coins went through the ROOF in early 90's because of him. Even had MERRILL LYNCH fooled, supporting a multitude of coin FUNDS for investments. And yes, I kept his income going by actually purchasing his book, "fun while it lasted" !!! We enjoy our hobbie.... I know 30 times more about coins than a year ago, and it is our duty to educate those that are asking us questions. We can save some but not all. Even the expert dealers can get fooled sometimes.
I see that TDN's eBay account has been reactivated.
The best way to protect buyers would be for eBay to do just 2 things. 1. Have non-biased groups review the various sales on eBay and have a direct pipeline to eBay on suspicious sales reporting. 2. Require that an extensive sunshine burden be put on sellers in the power seller program (similar but much more enlightening than the verification program they have now).
Requiring that all coins or coins with a market value over $xxx must be slabbed is a silly notion and is nothing but a band-aid on the eBay scamming problem as a whole.
Yes, my ebay ID is reactivated. But I'm stuck with the neg and he got his removed. Add to that he's going around telling lies saying that I'm the one who sold him the coin in the first place. Grrrr.
If I could confirm beyond a reasonable doubt his true identity, he'd get a little reminder of the real world!
I emailed the buyer of the MS-66 Rare Red + Rainbow 1853 Half Cent Start @$1500 NR. He told me he realized it was fake and refused to pay. He said the seller threatened to report him and leave negative feedback if he didn't pay, but the buyer said "screw him" and never paid.
My solution is that items sold under the headings of US Coins should be exactly that: US COINS.
NOT replicas, copies, counterfeits or I don't know if it is real commentary. If an item is sold under the heading of US Coins and it is found to be not of the US Mint, then title has never transferred and the seller will be required to refund all monies. No Estate sale sold as is garbage. The seller will have to take the responsibility for the item being "real".
Ebay can set-up a category for the I don't knows, replicas copies etc. if it wants to but if the item is listed under US Coins it should be just that: a US Coin.
<< <i>My solution is that items sold under the headings of US Coins should be exactly that: US COINS.
NOT replicas, copies, counterfeits or I don't know if it is real commentary. If an item is sold under the heading of US Coins and it is found to be not of the US Mint, then title has never transferred and the seller will be required to refund all monies. No Estate sale sold as is garbage. The seller will have to take the responsibility for the item being "real".
Ebay can set-up a category for the I don't knows, replicas copies etc. if it wants to but if the item is listed under US Coins it should be just that: a US Coin.
Ebay can set-up a category for the I don't knows, replicas copies etc. if it wants to but if the item is listed under US Coins it should be just that: a US Coin.
How about separate categories for:
1. Rip-offs, scams, dead grandpas collections, hoards, counterfeits, and any auction in which the descriptions starts with "I am not a coin person..." 2. Third tier and home-made slabs like this GGS slab 3. Honest-to-goodness PCGS and NGC coins (so we do not have to wade through all the other crap)
Well I stand corrected. I just got off the phone with the editor of one of the coin newspapers. He told me that legally, the newspapers abide by a somehwhat "different" law than what ebay does. And essentially, ebay is a "let it fly" medium where's it's basically "ok" from a standpoint of law in which to do these things. That good people and knowledgeable people as in the case of TDN have been thrown off Ebay while counterfeit sales and scam artists have essentially been given a free reign to proliferate.
Comments
<< <i>I believe it is trivially easy for us to create several additional ebay ID's and use them all to report to ebay about this guy. Maybe if there's enough volume then ebay will do something to this guy.
Why isn't the secret service involved? Isn't that one of their jobs?
Will coin world and Numismatic news do a story on this??
This is really something.
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Hey, this guy is in my backyard!!!! If anyone needs any "legal" help with this seller, let me know. I'm sure a friendly certified letter, followed by a phone call from an attorney might give him a cause to rethink what he is doing to people.
While Ebay might not provide protection, small claims court or possibly Superior Court would. If he's defrauding people intentionally, you might be able to collect up to treble damages.
PM me if you need some help,
Michael >>
Now why in the world would a lawyer be needed on this? This is a civil matter?
It's criminal is it not? Where is the secret service and the state attorneys office in california? Playing golf?
Jeesh
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Did anybody else notice that eBay has removed TDN's negative feedback from this seller's profile? It would seem to me that, from a legalese standpoint, that would be considered an "affirmative" action that could negate their argument that they are nothing more than a third party conduit.
Russ, NCNE >>
certainly needs to be supplied to the state attorneys office in California.
Unbelievable.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>It's criminal is it not? Where is the secret service and the state attorneys office in california? >>
It probably isn't criminal. And to prove the conduct was criminal would be a monumental hill to climb for a DA. There's little chance that the Secret Service of the AG's office will get involved in such a small matter. This is a private issue between 2 people -- that's why it really is a civil issue.
Russ -- very interesting and you make a great point. Ebay has gone beyond being a conduit. I suppose if someone buys the fake $9000.00 trade dollar now, they MIGHT have a claim that Ebay removed a feedback that could have warned other potential buyers not to buy the coin thus endorsing the sale of a counterfeit. Interesting angle, but not sure if there's enough to file a lawsuit over -- yet. Ebay's smart about this and they have a team of lawyers looking over these types of situations. Not to say that a lawyer has okayed this move, but I would guess that the removal of feedback in general has been looked at by an attorney and a policy developed when Ebay can or cannot remove feedback.
Michael
Exceptions would have to be made on items like rolls of Morgans, and bullion gold. The main problem I see with this is that many people will just not want to take the time to send in their coins to a TPGS and then Ebay will lose out on the revenue from the lost auctions. I don't see Ebay agreeing to this unless they have to and that will not happen in my opinion unless they lose some major legal battles in the future where they see that option as the only one left.
Supposedly, an effort was going to be made to have a central reporting conduit of some type, wherein people could report bogus offerings, the idea/hope being that the reports would be screened and forwarded to a (don't laugh) (cooperative) Ebay. I will try to speak to Barry at Long Beach and get some sort of update.
The difference is pressure. Someone has to apply pressure to Ebay in order for them to change their policies. Granted a few lawsuits might do the trick. And in 2000, the FTC stated that an online auction company could be held responsible for not policing their site. The question remains -- does Ebay do enough to protect themselves legally. I think the answer is yes. They bought Paypal, they offer mediation for deals gone bad, they allow you to insure your purchase through Paypal, they do investigate a certain percentage of auctions. Remember coins are not the biggest area of fraudulent activity on Ebay. Ebay's very well versed at defending itself now. I think suing Ebay would be a huge waste of time.
If there's going to be any change in Ebay, it'll most likely come from a business partnership with another market leader. That's why I suggested that they hook up with a PCGS/NGC/ANACS to serve as an official TPG. Good for the TPG, good for Ebay. It kinda forces people to use their retail stores. Less fraud means more transactions = more money for Ebay. If they are that dumb not to see that, then well ....
They could also institute a policy of no raw coins unless you are a PowerSeller or perhaps not less then a 95% positive rating with more than 1000 transactions. It's possible, it just takes some creative thought and a little pressure.
If the leaders in the coin industry lobbied Ebay for change, I'm sure they could make it happen.
Michael
<< <i>I spoke with Barry Stuppler quite some time ago regarding the sale of bogus/fake/misleading/fraudulent (copies of) coins on Ebay. It was my understanding that he and/or someone with the ANA had already been in contact with Ebay.
Supposedly, an effort was going to be made to have a central reporting conduit of some type, wherein people could report bogus offerings, the idea/hope being that the reports would be screened and forwarded to a (don't laugh) (cooperative) Ebay. I will try to speak to Barry at Long Beach and get some sort of update. >>
If they want to it is an easy fix. I think that would work.
Track complaints and when a seller reaches 2,3, or what ever # is chosen complaint level then they are investigated.
Once one of these people are investigated it isn't difficult to see a pattern of abuse.
IMO, Joe
Michael offers some interesting suggestions that are worth exploring. As others have pointed out, though, unless someone who is "a big gun" backs it, I doubt such a effort will accomplish anything other than shutting down one auction at a time or NARU'ing one scammer at a time.
Nonetheless, eBay has set a couple of precedents over monitoring auctions. They monitor for Nazi items, scanners, etc. Certainly if someone asserts fraud and sends them evidence (like obscured "COPY" markings), they should at least be obliged to suspend the auction while they investigate. Maybe if the accusations prove false, the complainant could be charged the seller's auction fees.
Since the Hobby Protection Act is federal law, it might also be possible to enlist PCGS to establish a relationship between CU and an appropriate representative to contact with suitable evidence. Unfortunately, as we learned several years ago smoking out a character selling a fake 1804 dollar as the real thing, the Feds currently don't bother with "small change" fraud that might cost more to investigate and prosecute than would be lost by the victim. It could well be, though, that having a dedicated investigative professional to go to might generate some positive press for the appropriate agency and scare the chickensh*t out of many of the small-time frauds.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
The best way to protect buyers would be for eBay to do just 2 things.
1. Have non-biased groups review the various sales on eBay and have a direct pipeline to eBay on suspicious sales reporting.
2. Require that an extensive sunshine burden be put on sellers in the power seller program (similar but much more enlightening than the verification program they have now).
Requiring that all coins or coins with a market value over $xxx must be slabbed is a silly notion and is nothing but a band-aid on the eBay scamming problem as a whole.
If I could confirm beyond a reasonable doubt his true identity, he'd get a little reminder of the real world!
Rgrds
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
See #2 in my previous reply.
Ebay, IMHO, to make it near impossible to hide.
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
NOT replicas, copies, counterfeits or I don't know if it is real commentary. If an item is sold under the heading of US Coins and it is found to be not of the US Mint, then title has never transferred and the seller will be required to refund all monies. No Estate sale sold as is garbage. The seller will have to take the responsibility for the item being "real".
Ebay can set-up a category for the I don't knows, replicas copies etc. if it wants to but if the item is listed under US Coins it should be just that: a US Coin.
Joe.
<< <i>My solution is that items sold under the headings of US Coins should be exactly that: US COINS.
NOT replicas, copies, counterfeits or I don't know if it is real commentary. If an item is sold under the heading of US Coins and it is found to be not of the US Mint, then title has never transferred and the seller will be required to refund all monies. No Estate sale sold as is garbage. The seller will have to take the responsibility for the item being "real".
Ebay can set-up a category for the I don't knows, replicas copies etc. if it wants to but if the item is listed under US Coins it should be just that: a US Coin.
Joe. >>
But the selling of counterfeit coins is criminal. No question.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
How about separate categories for:
1. Rip-offs, scams, dead grandpas collections, hoards, counterfeits, and any auction in which the descriptions starts with "I am not a coin person..."
2. Third tier and home-made slabs like this GGS slab
3. Honest-to-goodness PCGS and NGC coins (so we do not have to wade through all the other crap)
Blows my mind.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870