What a damn shame. Such a beautiful coin destroyed like that.
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TDN - That CAN'T be the same coin, can it? What a pity. The "before" went for $43,000 in an NGC holder - apparently not enough for the new owner. I assume it's now raw (and pretty much ruined, at least compared to what it was). What do you think it will go for now?
Tell me that's not the same coin!!!!
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
This just kills me. While we don't have the coin in hand and we don't know what photoshop tricks were done to the pics, it looks like all the luster has just been striped away from that coin. I wonder how many times it was dipped to get off that beautiful toning it once had.
Unbelievable! It is the same coin, for sure. I'll borrow from the Miller beer commercial, "That's a travesty, a sham, and a mockery. It's a traveshamockery!"
It's the same coin for sure. It's the Norweb specimen and is the plate coin in Bowers' Complete Encyclopedia [most plates were from Norweb]. The strike thru at star #4 caught my eye and I started matching other similarities. The small spot inside the second 0 of 900 confirmed it for me.
I viewed this coin when it sold at ANR in the NGC holder. It was quite lovely and I thought a sure fire cross. I almost bid on the coin, but I already have two so I didn't. But I was most favorably impressed. Sadly, not anymore! Grrrr.
It clearly is the same coin, just study both pictures. There has to be more to the story as it was extremely beautiful before. Now, very dull and lifeless.
Whoever did this will end up losing $20K or so for their efforts, which I suspect will be more than offset by the few hundred successful attempts they've undoubtedly made dipping otherwise nice coins, cramming them into upgraded holders and selling them to people who are not knowledgeable enough to know the difference.
Happens all the time with colonials, and its a damn shame.
Lets get a rope and track the person that did this down. Why would someone go and screw up such a beautiful coin. Obviously the person that did this was not in his/her right mind. It is such a shame that something like this would happen.
That is the same coin. If I saw the two pics before seeing this thread and did not immediately realize they were the same coin, I wouldn't have picked the after coin anyway. What a shame. I hope the coin doc that did this takes a huge bath on it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Lets get a rope and track the person that did this down. Why would someone go and screw up such a beautiful coin. Obviously the person that did this was not in his/her right mind. It is such a shame that something like this would happen. >>
Yes, it's a shame. But the rope might be a little extreme
I guess it is, Jeff. But people should still think what they are doing because they may be ruining the hobby for the future numismatists in such acts as this. That coin will probably never look as pretty as it once did and it is a crying shame that someone would do something like this all in seach of higher grade.
OK- so fess up- who's attacking all of the trade dollars?? This is especially interesting to me, considering the current popularity of original toning. There must be a big price jump between a 64 and 65 with these trade dollars for someone to be messing up such pristine coins... BTW, I never knew that lady liberty had such big toes on these coins!!!
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
I've never understood the reasoning behind such stupidity. Collectors constantly talk about dipping and how it improves the look of their coins. Perhaps if your coin is a POS, without value, I could understand. For someone to RUIN two nice looking coins like these is just plain stupid.
Looking at the bright side, collectors who own those dates may have just gotten a price bump... thanks to the stupidity of someone who's interests are obviously financial only.
He/she ruined more than one coin? Didn't he/she learn from the first? I can't see how he/she could have thought they'd be worth more or grade higher without the toning. It can't possibly have been done for financial reasons. It must be some type of strange reason.
TDN is right with the 1878-CC from Norweb -- they are unfortunately the same coin. I saw the piece when it came through ANR the first time around; this second time it is a part of Stack's session of our joint June sale so I didn't get to see the aftermath until just now. Having not seen the piece the 2nd time around in person, I can only hope it looks a trifle better in the round.
These things do happen, mostly to people who process product rather than those numismatists who happen to sell coins for a living. The only way to prevent it, in all honesty, is for original coins with superb provenance to be worth a substantial enough premium in and of themselves that they become too expensive (relative to other coins that are simply graded-coins-in-a-holder) for the doctors to risk such attempts at improvement. Some truly impressive coins, with long and historic pedigrees, have that blip in their past when researchers can pinpoint the exact time that they were dipped or otherwise played with. This one joins the ranks.
Another memorable example is the McCoy 1794 dollar, offered as far back as 1864 with graffiti, but offered in recent years totally devoid of the damage (and its provenance), but others could certainly be mentioned.
What bothers me nearly as much is the fact that ANR is doing everything they can to hype these coins. Besides the blissful descriptions, they've even included color photos.
Up until now I've been super impressed with ANR. But now, well, it looks like they're in kahoots with the seller.
<< <i>What bothers me nearly as much is the fact that ANR is doing everything they can to hype these coins. Besides the blissful descriptions, they've even included color photos.
Up until now I've been super impressed with ANR. But now, well, it looks like they're in kahoots with the seller.
Not good. >>
Wrong. As JK points out above, the coin is in the Stack's portion of the joint ANR / Stack's catalog, so its Stack's thats hyping.
On the other hand, Stack's is working for the seller, and, just like the real estate agent who sold you your house, their job is not to point out that the basement will fill with water next time you have a shower. You know what I mean?
This is a total travesty. take a beautiful coin and trash it. everybody wants to make the big score,but to take a killer coin and dip it ? a killer coin is just that,no matter what. it stands on its own merits. idiot probably pissed away 20 or 30 k cut your leg off and see if you gain some value !
About a week and a half ago, I said I would not post again on the US coin forum and after reading this thread, this post unfortunately, will be an exception... I have sent letters to PCGS, NGC and ANACS asking that a designation be added to coins with original surfaces and it fell upon deaf ears and even certain people, who will not be mentioned said there was not a demand for such a service... and now another rarity bites the dust and collectors complain... how many more original coins will be compromised? (for reasons that I will not go into...) Happy collecting everyone...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Many of you know I prefer white coins. The key word being prefer, and I have come along way in the way in which I look at toned coins. I have a few nice toned coins in my collection and would never think of ruining them by making them white. What a pity that such a beautiful coin has now become such a blah piece of (fill in the blank).
I wish people understood not to clean coins.
When ever there is a thread should I clean or dip this coin. I respond with "leave it alone-don't dip." This is a great example of what happens when you try to improve a coin. It becomes far less valueable.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< What bothers me nearly as much is the fact that ANR is doing everything they can to hype these coins. Besides the blissful descriptions, they've even included color photos.
Up until now I've been super impressed with ANR. But now, well, it looks like they're in kahoots with the seller.
Not good. >>
"Wrong. As JK points out above, the coin is in the Stack's portion of the joint ANR / Stack's catalog, so its Stack's thats hyping."
That's what's wrong with the coin market today- too many coins are sold not to collectors, but to "fast-buck artists." These "fast buck" guys are only interested in "flipping" the coin to a greater fool for a quick profit, often involving a "crack-out" and an "upgrade"- or I rather say, an overgrade.All they think aboit is that extra 1 or 2 points on the grade.
*anita gasps at the site of the butchered coin. a tear rolls down her face. she wishes she'd had the money for a coin like that, but it wasn't meant to be. she goes for a hurl*
I would have to concur with the reverse images... certainly the many dirt spots on the reverse in the same position are damning. I still can't figure out the obverse...around Liberty's left breast...the before coin has detail that in the second coin appear as strike flatness...but the quality of the photo is so high that large details shouldn't be obscured.
Could someone have placed the dirt in the same positions as a prank?
Very strange.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
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Tell me that's not the same coin!!!!
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
It trully is a sad day.
me
NOTE: This post left smiley free for clws benifit.
sad me
This just kills me. While we don't have the coin in hand and we don't know what photoshop tricks were done to the pics, it looks like all the luster has just been striped away from that coin. I wonder how many times it was dipped to get off that beautiful toning it once had.
What a shame.
Michael
Unbelievable! It is the same coin, for sure. I'll borrow from the Miller beer commercial, "That's a travesty, a sham, and a mockery. It's a traveshamockery!"
Seriously, that is an absolute shame.
jom
09/07/2006
is that really the same coin ?
TEARS
Proof
I viewed this coin when it sold at ANR in the NGC holder. It was quite lovely and I thought a sure fire cross. I almost bid on the coin, but I already have two so I didn't. But I was most favorably impressed. Sadly, not anymore! Grrrr.
<< <i>well on the way to Gem. >>
On its way alright, maybe with another hundred years of toning.
Tom
Happens all the time with colonials, and its a damn shame.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
That is the same coin. If I saw the two pics before seeing this thread and did not immediately realize they were the same coin, I wouldn't
have picked the after coin anyway. What a shame. I hope the coin doc that did this takes a huge bath on it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Lets get a rope and track the person that did this down. Why would someone go and screw up such a beautiful coin. Obviously the person that did this was not in his/her right mind. It is such a shame that something like this would happen. >>
Yes, it's a shame. But the rope might be a little extreme
What a shame.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
What a shame. And from the Norweb sale to boot.
roadrunner
Before
After
I hope for his sake, tho not for us collectors, that usually he's more successful in his chosen craft.
So who is it? I am certain many know who is the culprit.
Yep, the rim ding won't hide. It's the same coin. I hope he/she takes a financial beating.
<< <i>Yep, the rim ding won't hide. It's the same coin. I hope he/she takes a financial beating. >>
A physical one might be deserved, too
Looking at the bright side, collectors who own those dates may have just gotten a price bump... thanks to the stupidity of someone who's interests are obviously financial only.
<< <i>OK- so fess up- who's attacking all of the trade dollars?? >>
I bet someone with a huge financial interest in Trade Dollars could be the culprit -- trying to make his collection even worth more.
I know I'm dipping every marginally toned Peace $ I can get my hands on!!!!!!
Michael
TDN is right with the 1878-CC from Norweb -- they are unfortunately the same coin. I saw the piece when it came through ANR the first time around; this second time it is a part of Stack's session of our joint June sale so I didn't get to see the aftermath until just now. Having not seen the piece the 2nd time around in person, I can only hope it looks a trifle better in the round.
These things do happen, mostly to people who process product rather than those numismatists who happen to sell coins for a living. The only way to prevent it, in all honesty, is for original coins with superb provenance to be worth a substantial enough premium in and of themselves that they become too expensive (relative to other coins that are simply graded-coins-in-a-holder) for the doctors to risk such attempts at improvement. Some truly impressive coins, with long and historic pedigrees, have that blip in their past when researchers can pinpoint the exact time that they were dipped or otherwise played with. This one joins the ranks.
Another memorable example is the McCoy 1794 dollar, offered as far back as 1864 with graffiti, but offered in recent years totally devoid of the damage (and its provenance), but others could certainly be mentioned.
John K.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Yet another reason why dipping is BAD!
Up until now I've been super impressed with ANR. But now, well, it looks like they're in kahoots with the seller.
Not good.
<< <i>What bothers me nearly as much is the fact that ANR is doing everything they can to hype these coins. Besides the blissful descriptions, they've even included color photos.
Up until now I've been super impressed with ANR. But now, well, it looks like they're in kahoots with the seller.
Not good. >>
Wrong. As JK points out above, the coin is in the Stack's portion of the joint ANR / Stack's catalog, so its Stack's thats hyping.
On the other hand, Stack's is working for the seller, and, just like the real estate agent who sold you your house, their job is not to point out that the basement will fill with water next time you have a shower. You know what I mean?
take a beautiful coin and trash it.
everybody wants to make the big score,but to take a killer coin and dip it ?
a killer coin is just that,no matter what.
it stands on its own merits.
idiot probably pissed away 20 or 30 k
cut your leg off and see if you gain some value !
Proof
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I wish people understood not to clean coins.
When ever there is a thread should I clean or dip this coin. I respond with "leave it alone-don't dip." This is a great example of what happens when you try to improve a coin. It becomes far less valueable.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I really enjoyed that. Wish all the big name web sites had that.
Dan769
NCS "mistakes" ????
very sad.
Up until now I've been super impressed with ANR. But now, well, it looks like they're in kahoots with the seller.
Not good. >>
"Wrong. As JK points out above, the coin is in the Stack's portion of the joint ANR / Stack's catalog, so its Stack's thats hyping."
Sorry ANR. My bad.
left of Liberty's left elbow. Completely different.
I'd like to beat the crap out of the person that did this, and also ANR for participating.
Check out a Vanguard Roth IRA.
<< <i>Absolutely not the same coin...look at the skirt detail to the
left of Liberty's left elbow. Completely different. >>
Sorry, but that's not correct--that could simply be the angle of the light. Here is what matches exactly:
Below the 4th star on the left is a big strike through
Black spots between ES and O in STATES OF
Unquestionably, these are the same coin.
spots on the reverse in the same position are damning. I still can't figure
out the obverse...around Liberty's left breast...the before coin has detail that
in the second coin appear as strike flatness...but the quality of the photo
is so high that large details shouldn't be obscured.
Could someone have placed the dirt in the same positions as a prank?
Very strange.
Ken