Boiler Room High Pressure Rare Coin Sales

hoshor · May 26, 2004 11:45PM

My elderly father has fallen upon ill health and it has required me to intervene into his financial affairs. I have discovered that he was subject to high pressure phone sales. While my father was in the hospital ICU, his phone was ringing off the hook. Every time I answered, I heard a "click" as the other party hung up. On the fourth time around, I said nothing. After about 10 seconds of silence, a voice on the other end said "Hello". I pretended to be an elderly sick man. Pretty soon the sales guy was my best buddy and pushing the coins hard. I indicated my credit cards were maxed out and I didnt think it would be a good idea. He insited and said he'd ship them right out and which credit card did I want to use. I obtained his full contact and company information before revealing myself. What a friggin scumbag parasite. The coins my Dad purchased from this and similar companies were both raw and NGC, PCGS and ANACS. In looking at some sample terms and conditions from these companies, coin returns within a 10-day period are subject to a 25% "restocking fee". That is a blatant rip-off, especially on a $3000 purchase. The prices charged are easily double the market retail value. This end result is high credit card bills and rare coin assets that must be liquidated at a loss. Its a sad day when an enjoyable hobby leads to financial ruin.

Any suggestions on the current situation?
Any thoughts on how to prevent this abuse to other victims?
Any suggested regulatory agencies to contact?

You can e-mail me if you want to reply in private. Thanks!

Placid · May 26, 2004 11:46PM

dlimb2 · May 26, 2004 11:51PM

Call the Better Business Bureau...Call your local TV station and get it going with them...tell them who the party is and spread the word...give them a bad name.

ccrdragon · May 26, 2004 11:52PM

Would you be willing to post the name of the outfit?

LanLord · May 26, 2004 11:56PM

That's just a terrible story, I'm sorry to hear that kind of stuff.

Your use of the term parasite is a slap in the face to all parasites on earth, that guy (and any others

that rip off people that way) are the worst kind of slime.

kranky · May 26, 2004 11:58PM

I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your father. Maybe the best thing you could do to protect him is to get his credit cards cancelled if he can't resist high-pressure sales tactics.

These boiler-room outfits come and go and I think it would be next to impossible to shut them down. It seems like only the most blatant ones ever get prosecuted. Although just read a couple weeks ago about an outfit which got indicted for such shenanigans. Link. Perhaps that link will be helpful.

JadeRareCoin · May 27, 2004 12:06AM

The BBB is absolutely useless. Contact the FTC (Federal Trade Commission - see link below). You must also contact your State Attorney General's office. Each state has a web site for the Attorney General's office. Most have a section which discusses telemarketing fraud, and some even have online forms that allow you to file complaints.

START HERE:

Click "File Complaint Link At This FTC Web Site

How do I know about this process? We have had more than a few customers who were victimized by the telemarketing scumbags just like your father was. That's why I have a problem with Coin Vault and other "shop at home" television coin sales. It's not quite as bad as the phone coin telemarketers, but the apple does not fall far from the tree.

The coin telemarketers need to be punished in a severe way. I remember last year that 10 or so of these pond-scum telemarketing firms were raided by law enforcement officials on the East Coast (mainly New York, Long Island). I know of one such firm in Boston that continues to operate, even though we have reported them.

Here's another link to report Telemarketing Fraud

csw · May 27, 2004 12:08AM

The conduct you described is or likely is prohibited by almost all states, many of which have laws that would require the seller to refund the complete amount, restocking fees and the like notwithstanding.

Call -- immediately -- the general number of your state's attorney general. Ask the operator who answers for the consumer fraud division. Explain what happened to the person to whom your call is forwarded and ask what options are available to you. You may be able to persuade someone there to write a demand letter on your behalf to the kind folks who so pleasantly ripped off your family. Coupled with a letter of your own, in which you quote passages from the relevant consumer fraud statute(s) (especially the parts about awards of attorneys fees and multiple damages), you might get some relief.

--csw

csw · May 27, 2004 12:12AM

JRC's advice about contacting the FTC is sound, but unlikely to lead anywhere (unless the seller is ripping off an uncommonly large number of people). The FTC folks will be sympathetic, but will refer you to local authorities. Take their advice: your state's Attorney General's office is best equipped and most motivated to address your problems.

Good luck!
-csw

nwcs · May 27, 2004 12:32AM

<< <i>Call the Better Business Bureau...Call your local TV station and get it going with them...tell them who the party is and spread the word...give them a bad name. >>

I agree

LucyBop · May 27, 2004 12:51AM

simply terrible!

GoldCoinLover · May 27, 2004 12:56AM

I'd love to help out, but could someone please explain what "a boiler room outfit" is? Doesn't make much sense to me.

nwcs · May 27, 2004 12:58AM

Same as a fly by nite

dlimb2 · May 27, 2004 1:10AM

GoldCoinLover:
A group of people running a scam.

CarlWohlforth · May 27, 2004 1:43AM

"a boiler room outfit"

There are a few folks in a room calling people and putting high pressure on them to buy something. Boilers also operate by high pressure. These are often also "fly by night" operations as when the authorities come to arrest them they leave town abruptly, even at night.

ohbaby · May 27, 2004 2:19AM

JadeRareCoin is right on the money. Forget about the Better Business Bureau, they are the same as a Chamber of Commerce and have no teeth, any inquiries by them would be ignored. BBB is a near scam themselves on the unsuspecting.

Additionally, depending on your state, senior citizens are protected by law against financial abuse and also have a recission period to cancel a sale. Do a google search on elder abuse [your state name].

Good luck.

JadeRareCoin · May 27, 2004 2:23AM

.......where's the "Coin Doctor Posse"? Last I heard they were organized and ready to rumble. I also heard that they were going to go after telemarketing firms that sell overpriced/overgraded coins to the elderly. Here's their first chance to live up to their claims of gallantry.

hoshor · May 27, 2004 2:24AM

I just got off the phone with a representative of Wall Street Rare Coins requesting the return of 4 coins purchased by my father. Let's take an informal poll..... reply to this post and indicate, based on your experience, whether or not the following coins were priced fairly:

Invoice #1 $1790
==============================
NGC MS62 1927 $2 1/2 Indian Gold Piece (PCGS Retail Price Guide $500)
NGC MS62 1895 $5 Liberty (PCGS Retail Price Guide $360)

Invoice #2 $895
==============================
NGC MS62 $5 1893 Liberty (PCGS Retail Price Guide $360)

Invoice #3 $895
==============================
NGC MS62 $5 1885-S Liberty (PCGS Retail Price Guide $360)

The representative from Wall Street Rare Coins tried to convince me that their prices represented "fair market value". From my perspective, paying $3580 for coins with a suggested PCGS retail price of $1580 has the appearance of outright fraud. That's 226% above suggested RETAIL pricing. Unbelieveable. My simple request to WSRC was to accept the above four coins back and provide a full credit. This request was refused.

Unfortunately, I'm tied up supporting my parents. However, I'm also outraged by this abuse and want to take any possible action. I'll start by filing a complaint with the New York State Attorney General's Office. If anyone has time to conduct some research or can provide information, links, etc please let me know.

I did some research and found this interesting link that dates back to 2001, I suspect there may be more recent events:

SPITZER ANNOUNCES SIX INDICTED IN NATIONWIDE, $25 MILLION ‘RARE’ COIN BOILER ROOM SCAM

JrGMan2004 · May 27, 2004 2:27AM

Scum of the Universe...

JadeRareCoin · May 27, 2004 2:34AM

Hoshor, that is the typical markup used by these scum-sucking pigs. I have seen this before. In one case, a guy paid over $100,000 for similar items. The clever firms sell only PCGS or NGC coins. Their gimmick is the price. The reality is that your father could have purchased the exact same coins from a Heritage auction for just over $1000. The PCGS price guide is very high in relation to the real market.

Okay everyone!! Pick-up your phones and start calling "Wall Street Rare Coins". When they answer, tell them to refund the money to hoshor's father!! Raise hell!!!!

JeffinMich · May 27, 2004 2:40AM

I can't get their web site to work.....anyone else having problems?

Placid · May 27, 2004 2:45AM

Invoice #1 $1790
==============================
NGC MS62 1927 $2 1/2 Indian Gold Piece (PCGS Retail Price Guide $500 Sold May 8, 2004 $391.00
Link

NGC MS62 1895 $5 Liberty (PCGS Retail Price Guide $360)
No match.

Invoice #2 $895
==============================
NGC MS62 $5 1893 Liberty (PCGS Retail Price Guide $360)
Sold For: $356.50 March 29, 2004
Link

Invoice #3 $895
==============================
NGC MS62 $5 1885-S Liberty (PCGS Retail Price Guide $360)

Sold For: $310.50 May 10, 2004
Link

Looks like these dirtbags are buying coins and reselling them at 100%+ markup.

hoshor · May 27, 2004 2:45AM

Wall Street Rare Coins Phone Number: 1.800.229.9255
ask for David Kendall
My father's name is Alfred Hoshor

RYK · May 27, 2004 2:47AM

Fixed link to Wall Street Rare Coins

RKKay · May 27, 2004 2:47AM

Link to Wall Street Rare Coins

kranky · May 27, 2004 2:47AM

I posted a link in my reply above to a story of a Department of Justice indictment of a coin dealer which you may want to check out.

Now, I see this on the WSRC web page called "Risk Disclosure"....

10. All claims and disputes relating to this sales agreement between Wall Street Rare Coins and the buyer shall be subject to arbitration at the option of either Wall Street Rare Coins or the buyer in accordance with the Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association, in effect at the time of arbitration. Written notice of the desire for arbitration shall be filed with the other party to the sales agreement and with the American Arbitration Association, within twenty (20) days after the dispute has arisen.

11. The arbitrators expenses and fees, together with other expenses, not including attorneys fees, incurred in the conduct of arbitration, shall be shared equally among parties.

12. Wall Street Rare Coins shall not be responsible for claims arising out of the monetary value of the item purchased. The buyer has been informed of the market fluctuation in price as to said items and therefore assumes all risks associated therewith.

csw · May 27, 2004 2:52AM

Disclaimer 12 is not enforceable if in fact the coins were sold in a way that violates either the FTC's or the local state's consumer protections laws. Although technically speaking private parties are free to reach any agreement they wish, provisions in those agreements which are contrary to law or public policy are not enforceable.

-csw

K6AZ · May 27, 2004 3:10AM

Hoshor, I think you have the information you need to file a complaint with the New York Attorney General. Contact them and explain your situation.

For everyone else, be aware. These types of outfits love to employ legal intimidation.

K6AZ · May 27, 2004 3:13AM

One more thing. This disclaimer claiming you have to use their kangaroo court arbitrars carries about as much weight as rock throwing dumptrucks who have "we are not responsible for broken windshields" on the back of their trucks.

fishcooker · May 27, 2004 3:16AM

David Kendall? I wonder if that is *the* David Kendall who was Clinton's lawyer?

Surely it can't be?

RYK · May 27, 2004 3:16AM

I should buy a coin just so I can file a complaint.

coinlieutenant · May 27, 2004 3:55AM

I have a conference call with sales representative in about a half hour.

MacCrimmon · May 27, 2004 4:05AM

Hey CL,

Triangulate on the suckers and send them a Cruise missile for dinner!!!

coinlieutenant · May 27, 2004 4:12AM

Mac,

I wish that I could.

I hate hearing about this type of stuff.

John

coinlieutenant · May 27, 2004 4:29AM

Well guys,

No luck in getting the money back...

I was threatened with legal action however...

We need to do something about this of course. Most likely the best recourse would be for Hoshor to contact the NY AG's office. Also contact the Federal Trade Commissions office and file a complaint.

Not much that I can do on this side as I am not really involved.

You will have to do this on your own I am afraid.

You might want to contact the "coin posse" as they have been dubbed. Action within the community can be taken as well. I dont know how to get in touch with John Albanese but you could call Laura Sperber at Legend to find out what the status of the posse is and what can be done to pressure these guys into changing their tactics.

You need to hit them from various angles, all three I would think...

Hope this helps.

V.r,
John

RYK · May 27, 2004 4:34AM

I was threatened with legal action however...

That sounds familiar!

coinlieutenant · May 27, 2004 4:36AM

ROFL!!!

K6AZ · May 27, 2004 4:37AM

<< <i>I was threatened with legal action however... >>

It's truly amazing how someone can set up a "company", defraud people, and then threaten lawsuits.

These people need to be reported to the NY Attorney General and the FTC. I have sent an online report to the FTC, I suggest everyone else does as well. Using telemarketing to sell coins at three times their market value is actionable.

csw · May 27, 2004 4:40AM

The US Attorney's office in Brooklyn might be receptive. They prosecuted some folks for a similar scheme. Link to thread
The point is, there are resources out there to help, but you must first reach out to them.

--csw

K6AZ · May 27, 2004 4:41AM

I guess it would help to include the link to the FTC complaint form:

FTC Complaint Form

Fill out all the information that applies to you, then in the other information box, note that they have a website advertising their "services".

K6AZ · May 27, 2004 4:44AM

And here is US vs. Kayne, which is referenced in that action.

US vs. Kayne

BigE · May 27, 2004 5:20AM

hoshor, from what I am seeing here you won't be able to get anywhere with these people on your own because they probably are professionals at blowing irate customers off, just turn them in to the appropriate authorities and stay on top of it. Best wishes to your family and I hope things go better for you-------------------------------BigE

JadeRareCoin · May 27, 2004 5:25AM

K6AZ, I posted the link to the FTC Complaint Form on page 1 of this thread, but it does not work. It's a secure site (or something) and can't be linked. The new link I posted on page 1 will get everyone to the complaint form (button at top of page). K6AZ's suggestion is a good one; everyone reading this should file a complaint so that it will get the attention of the FTC. The NY Attorney General will probably be the quickest to respond.

In my post on page 1 I had also suggested that the Coin Posse get involved with this one. Coinlieutenant shared in my suggestion. This would be the PERFECT test to see how effective the Posse will be. If they can't help hoshor's father, then who will they be able to help?

The potential problem here is that the telemarketers that are selling the SS Republic coins for MANY times their actual value are really no different than this "Wall Street Rare Coins". Will the FTC and the Attorney General shut down the HSN and Coin Vault too?

BigE · May 27, 2004 5:30AM

A big difference between HSN and calling an elderly person while sick in the hospital I think. Get the records of the incoming calls to his room as evidence!-------BigE

K6AZ · May 27, 2004 5:42AM

<< <i>K6AZ, I posted the link to the FTC Complaint Form on page 1 of this thread, but it does not work. It's a secure site (or something) and can't be linked. >>

I used the wrong button, it's fixed now.

coinlieutenant · May 27, 2004 5:52AM

Have to link with https...

jeffnpcb · May 27, 2004 6:02AM

I know how you feel! They call me all the time with over-priced and over-hyped coins. The coins themselves are not that bad, but the pricing is twice the norm. Last call, I offered him back a price on a VAM which is indictive of the actual coin valueI thought he was going to lose it hyping a VAM. There is no way a $60.00 Morgan, regardless of the VAM designation is worth $700.00!It was an 1884-O, but not the DDO "Hot Lips" variety.
I don't argue anymore, I just say no and hang up!

RYK · May 27, 2004 12:34PM

I spoke with a friend this evening who is an attorney for the FTC. She told me that it is definitely worthwhile to file a complaint with the FTC, either via the website (www.ftc.gov) or by phone 1-888-FTC-HELP. The FTC apparently takes these cases very seriously and works regularly with other Federal and local government agencies to put together civil cases in such matters, but the process takes time, and it is not likely that the individual making the complaint will get feedback or individual help.

Bear · May 27, 2004 1:17PM

The term BOILER ROOM refers to any seller using high pressure tactics. It was most popular back in the 50s

with penny uranium stocks. These people have a play book with all the answers to any conceivable question.

They are very good at what they do. Especially vunerable are older folks who may be lonly for someone to

talk to , slowing down mentally or just too polite to hang up. These con artists play on the old folks concerns

about running out of money or build a phone relationship to extract money. When I get one of these hot shots

on the phone ,I just hang up. HANG UP VERY LOUDLY!!!

hoshor · May 28, 2004 4:29AM

I have received a verbal agreement from the aforementioned WSRC firm that a full credit will be issued for the four coins in question. I am hopeful this will resolve the situation. I'll let you know if it doesn't. I am very appreciative for the support I found on this board. This is a good group of people. Many thanks to all of you for your support, advice and understanding. - Mark

kranky · May 28, 2004 4:37AM

Wow! That's great! I'd love to know what changed their mind.

Boiler Room High Pressure Rare Coin Sales

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