Suspicious raised lumps and lines on coin

GoldCoinLover · May 11, 2004 2:20PM

Recently I had my ANACS slab of my 1913 sovereign come back. Just out of curiousity, I looked under it with my 30X microscope and noticed something strange. Right next to the last T in BRITT there is (what seriously appears to be) a raised curve line extending from the T to period at the end of BRITT. Also below that is a partial raised lump. I looked though many books on counterfeit coins and those are (at least from what I know) the tall tale signs. Why did ANACS slab it then? Is there anyway these raised lines could be made besides, obviously, being counterfeit?

Thanks. Just curious and trying to turn. Please don't be offended by another sovereign thread, I'm just curious, that's all.

Placid · May 11, 2004 2:31PM

Die cracks make raised lines. Die chips make lumps.

Have you weighed and measured the coin? Of course that is best to do before slabbing

cacheman · May 11, 2004 2:46PM

I suggest you travel to the nearest University with an electron microscope to get a better view of this maligned speciman...

XpipedreamR · May 11, 2004 2:50PM

You should look at some different old coins to see that they all have various lines and bumps...especially at 30x!

GoldCoinLover · May 11, 2004 3:21PM

Yeah, I weighted it before I got it slabbed. It weighted 8.0 grams. I never knew old coins had those lines/bumps. After reading the PCGS guide book I thought that's how you spot counterfeits, so it kinda raised a red flag. Thanks all

Lloyd · May 11, 2004 4:45PM

Definitely a worthless counterfeit - how did it get passed ANACS? Or are they part of the whole conspiracy?

I'd send it back to the dealer you bought it from. Or better still, contact them first. I mean, how many people are they ripping off? It's probably a conspiracy.

EDITED TO REMOVE THIS SECTION: there's guys across the street watching my house.

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(I think the people down the hall know who we are)
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hetman · May 11, 2004 6:12PM

Perhaps it's a fake, Mr. Goldcoinlover. Probably you should break it out and send it to PCGS.

trozau · May 11, 2004 9:24PM

GCL, no flame intended but ...

wybrit · May 11, 2004 9:26PM

Perhaps it's a fake, Mr. Goldcoinlover. Probably you should break it out and send it to PCGS.

Now you've gone and done it, GCL! You awakened the Sleeper!

hetman · May 12, 2004 1:39AM

The sleeper doesn't like to be so rudely awakened, I can assure you, Mr. Wybrit.

GoldCoinLover · May 12, 2004 2:24AM

<< Definitely a worthless counterfeit - how did it get passed ANACS? Or are they part of the whole conspiracy?

I'd send it back to the dealer you bought it from. Or better still, contact them first. I mean, how many people are they ripping off? It's probably a conspiracy.

EDITED TO REMOVE THIS SECTION: there's guys across the street watching my house.

Are you being sarcastic? Or do you think it is fake? I just want an honest opinion all, I don't want to be made fun of.

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(I think the people down the hall know who we are)
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Lloyd · May 12, 2004 3:11AM

How long have you been paranoid?

Since they started looooooooking for me....

Course it's not a bloody fake. It's a common bit of gold bullion - a nothing coin since the scratches.

L

GoldCoinLover · May 12, 2004 6:31AM

<< a nothing coin since the scratches. >>

Wow, that's pretty harsh to say that to me. That's the main reason I don't like the ancient forum anymore, people are too damn mean. I'm a YN trying to learn about coins and have nothing but a group of angry unconsiderable adults try to steer me in the wrong direction. I was perplexed because I have a book called the Offical PCGS guide to Grading and counterfeit detection. A sign of counterfeiting in the book, it says is raised lumps and raised lines.

No, it doesn't make sense why someone would waste their money creating a common date sovereign but they are out there. I guess the reason could be from a die crack, etc. I never thought spotting a counterfeit from a geniune coin could be so difficult, (since I thought I knew what to look for).

cacheman · May 12, 2004 7:19AM

Maybe you need to invest in a bulk bag of darkside coins to inspect and learn from...I am serious. Your obsession with the one coin is not teaching you anything new and you need to see more of what's out there. I would suggest a bag filled with coins from a number of countries so you can get your feet wet...expand your knowledge and open your mind.

tbirde56 · May 12, 2004 8:13AM

There IS a lot of adult level sarcastic 'humor' around here that can easily be construed as a possible insult to some. But try your best to ignore it. If you respond or react to it you just become an easy target for those with too much time on their hands. The basic goal of the Forum is to pass on knowlege and information. Some just have no patience for questions that they might think simpleminded but aren't meant to be.
At 30x examination you'll find all sorts of odd things on any coin.
Follow cacheman's advice and look at other things to gain a wider viewpoint of possibilities and realities.

canadiancoinguy · May 12, 2004 8:16AM

Check to see if the designer's initials (under the King's head) are there.

GoldCoinLover · May 12, 2004 8:47AM

<< Check to see if the designer's initials (under the King's head) are there. >>

They are there, including the initials on the other side next to the date. Thanks for the advice Cachemen, I have a box full of foriegn coins I'll look into.

Cruzi · May 12, 2004 11:04AM

It's a common mistake to overly examine a coin when looking for fakes.

What you look at is the coin as a whole, its the entire impression you get that will tell you if it is a fake, things like colour, design and condition.

There are 1913 fakes out there, for a period after WWII sovereigns were worth a lot more than just the bullion value , so it was viable to make full weight sovs and still make a profit.

There was even the instance of the Italian gentleman who made sovs for a non-existant date with full weight, he made a fortune out of these fakes.

When the British Government finally caught up with him in Switzerland and charged him, he got off the charges because he claimed that sovs where no longer legal tender.

To prove this, an assistant was sent to the UK to spend some sovs for common purchases, nobody would accept them as payment.

Askari · May 12, 2004 1:36PM

I do think you guys need to go easy for a while with GCL. Y'all have been rather rough on him and that's not the Darkside "way" -- remember, our motto is that there are no stupid questions. (If you want stupid questions, we have the Open Forum for that.

)

GCL, Cacheman offers good advice. While gold coins are lovely, they're a more challenging series than coins of harder metals. You might want to "spread out a little" to strengthen your ability to evaluate different aspects of coins. Since you're interested in Sovereigns, spend a little time collecting other coins, silver and common-metal, from that period. It's a less-expensive way to learn about British striking characteristics in general -- knowledge that will be directly applicable to your sovereigns. Also, do some further research on the known counterfeits of Sovereigns. Perhaps some of the experts here can recommend good sources. It might also be advisable to pick up a general book on coin errors so you can learn the difference between outright "errors" and counterfeit telltales.

Conder101 · May 16, 2004 1:36AM

<< I was perplexed because I have a book called the Offical PCGS guide to Grading and counterfeit detection. A sign of counterfeiting in the book, it says is raised lumps and raised lines. >>

You're reading too much into that. Raised lumps and lines can be a sign of counterfeits. But genuine coins can also have raised lumps and lines. (And under 30X magnification you will see all kinds of things that will scare you that don't really mean anything.) So just because you see a couple microscopic lumps and lines don't get your skivvies in a knot. Remember this. Most dies are polished at some point in their lives leaving lines scratched into their surfaces which in turn leave raised lines on the coin. Dies can also be accidently scratched by tools, and die clashes can also result in raised lines on genuine coins.

The raised lumps on counterfeits are usually like "pimples". They are usaully clearly visible with a 5X glass and may appear individually out in the fields or in groups around the denticals, letters, stars etc. HOWEVER, dies can also rst and cause similar appearing lumps on genuine coins as well. One feature authenticator really use are depressions in the coin. Bag and contact marks that repeat b]identically on multiple coins. This is because bag marks on the coin used to create the die are transferred to the die, and then reproduced on every coin made from those dies.

<< No, it doesn't make sense why someone would waste their money creating a common date sovereign but they are out there. >>

Because from 1933 to 1975 gold ownership was illegal in the US, but gold COIN ownership (For coins dated before 1933) was legal and the coins traded a a significant premium over the gold value. If they counterfeited rare dates these would be closely examined and the fakes would be quickly unmasked. (Think of the boatloads of 1804 dollars, trade dollars, and 1894-S dimes that come out of the Orient.) Common coins trading at a 20% premium over their melt value didn't provide a "big kill" but could be profitably carried on much longer.

Sylvestius · May 16, 2004 5:50AM

sounds like a die crack/flaw to me.

Now if you want suspicious, you should have seen that pile of 1915 half sovereigns i was examining, every single one of them have a curved stain like mark running around as if they had been cleaned, or as if the copper was not mixed properly and had created a very light crescent effect. Either that or they were scratches from light circular cleaning, which had left a slight tarnish in the grooves.

Funny how it was in the same place on every single one though! I'm betting every single one was a fake. But since it was a jewlers selling them, and at full catalogue price it appeared that;

1) they couldn't grade

2) they couldn't spot a fake if it smacked them in the face.

Suspicious raised lumps and lines on coin

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