An interesting comparison for those who think PCGS is tougher than NGC.

Russ · April 20, 2004 11:22AM

Accented Hair Kennedy Half Dollars.

NGC graded:

Brilliant: 1335
Cameo: 407
UCAM: 25

Total: 1767
% UCAM: 1.4

PCGS graded:

Brilliant: 1153
Cameo: 260
DCAM: 57

Total: 1470
% DCAM: 3.9

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut · April 20, 2004 11:23AM

But PCGS commands more money, so more DCAMs have likely been submitted to them and not NGC

JrGMan2004 · April 20, 2004 11:26AM

<< But PCGS commands more money, so more DCAMs have likely been submitted to them and not NGC >>

I think you might be right on that... especially in a market like it currently is, the Registry Craze and all...

Russ · April 20, 2004 11:27AM

<< But PCGS commands more money, so more DCAMs have likely been submitted to them and not NGC >>

At first blush, that argument might have merit. But, it assumes that none of the cameos submitted were done so in hopes of a DCAM or UCAM. Since the cameo population at NGC is much higher than PCGS, that argument is negated. Otherwise, we'd have to assume that the majority of submitters can accurately predict precisely what the designation will be. We know that is not the case.

Russ, NCNE

RGL · April 20, 2004 11:46AM

Agreed ... methinks the killer DCAMs more likely to land at PCGS than NGC.

Placid · April 20, 2004 11:51AM

Ngc UCAM: 25
Pcgs DCAM: 57

22 of the ngc ucams were crossed to pcgs. 18 of them made dcam.
15 of the pcgs dcams were cracked out and sent back for a higher grade.

DHeath · April 20, 2004 11:56AM

Russ, you're reading the numbers. That'll make a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.

coppercoins · April 20, 2004 12:58PM

apples and oranges.

Waldo · April 20, 2004 1:12PM

I think Russ is another alias of MR.PLATINUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But seriously folks.....if a coin is truly worthy of the grade it'll be crossed to PCGS inorder to get the most buck$. I only collect PCGS 'cause I know I'm right!

DHeath · April 20, 2004 1:17PM

Waldo, don't tease the bargain shoppers.

haletj · April 20, 2004 1:31PM

How about this...

I have at one time owned 5 ngc modern coins... 4 of those I have had the same coin in a pcgs holder of the same grade (83-d,85 ms67rd cents, 1970 ms66 quarter, 1995-d ms66 half). In all 4 of these cases the ngc coin was far superior to the pcgs one! The exception was a terrible ms66rd ngc 73-s cent.

But, of course this might be biased, because I may be more selective when buying ngc ones becasue of the stigma "they aren't as good". But who knows, maybe my small sampling of ngc modern coins is an accurate depiction overall.

Oh yeah, never buy ngc Mercury Dimes. They're overgraded by a good 2 points (from my 2 coin sample of a 34-d,35-s).

Aethelred · April 20, 2004 1:36PM

For the most part I believe that the difference between PCGS and NGC is so slight as to almost not matter and in any case the lines are blurred enough that there is overlap.

Waldo · April 20, 2004 1:45PM

<< For the most part I believe that the difference between PCGS and NGC is so slight as to almost not matter and in any case the lines are blurred enough that there is overlap. >>

Just look at most coin ads. If a dealer has both a PCGS and an NGC of the same coin and grade, he'll ask more for the PCGS 90% of the time. And that ain't just to catch us dummies!

Aethelred · April 20, 2004 1:57PM

<< 

<< For the most part I believe that the difference between PCGS and NGC is so slight as to almost not matter and in any case the lines are blurred enough that there is overlap. >>

Just look at most coin ads. If a dealer has both a PCGS and an NGC of the same coin and grade, he'll ask more for the PCGS 90% of the time. And that ain't just to catch us dummies!

>>

I mean in terms of grading, not market acceptance. I also think the fact that PCGS excludes NGC slabs from the Registry while NGC does not exclude PCGS slabs plays a part in driving up PCGS prices.

islemangu · April 20, 2004 4:14PM

numbers too close for any statistical significance when considering the randomness of submittals.

keets · April 20, 2004 6:21PM

the numbers posted really don't prove anything more than what they prove. the only true comparison is with side-by- side same grade coins from each company. several dealers have been alluding to the fact that NGC is tougher on CAM/DCAM than PCGS, my observation with the coins i collect don't prove that.

since you are the acknowledged forum guru with the AH Kennedy Half-Dollars and have likely seen more examples in each company's holders, what do you say, absent the pop numbers?

al h.

dorkkarl · April 20, 2004 8:10PM

PCGS is the best! PCGS only for me! That's why others trade at a discount, because they just aren't the best! Why look at any other coins than PCGS when they are proven to be the best? Your research proves it!

- wallstreetman, aka joyofmoderns

DHeath · April 20, 2004 8:39PM

NGC is generally a little looser on cam, and harder on Ucam. Al, here's a common coin from your series with big pops at both companies. These numbers mirror my submission results, but maybe your experience has been different. Without three distinct cameo designations, I tend to agree with NGC's approach regarding cam. Coins with good contrast are better described as cam instead of brilliant to me. If there were light cam/ medium cam/ and deep cam, collectors would be better served.

1964 Jeff Proof

PCGS - graded

Brilliant - 1130
Cameo - 746
Dcam - 476 (20%)

NGC graded

Brilliant - 1057
Cameo - 454
Ucam - 86 (5%)

1968 Jeff Proof

PCGS - graded

Brilliant - 148
Cameo - 83
Dcam - 555 (71%)

NGC graded

Brilliant - 122
Cameo - 57
Ucam - 43 (19%)

The PCGS Dcam pops go upsidedown in year 68-72 (more dcams than cams). NGC's pops don't go upsidedown till 72.

Edited to add - PCGS cares more about mirrors than NGC. NGC cares more about white devices. At NGC, a coin with white devices will Ucam even if it has a little frost in the fields. PCGS is more lenient of the color of the devices if the mirrors are deep. JMO

keets · April 20, 2004 9:40PM

hey Don

comparing numbers is interesting from the standpoint of trying to prove a point, but it doesn't really do any good without seeing what was submitted and what grades those submittals received.

you need to edit those 1968 PCGS numbers.

al h.

DHeath · April 20, 2004 10:10PM

you need to edit those 1968 PCGS numbers

Al, I looked again and they are 148, 83, and 555. What did I missing something? Although I understand your point regarding what is submitted, it is cameo designation not grade that those numbers reflect. Since that's a much broader category, I think the pops are pretty useful, even though it's apples and oranges as CC suggested.

keets · April 20, 2004 11:32PM

my mistake on the numbers, i had read them wrong. also, i am guilty of interchanging the usage of grade while we're discussing CAM/DCAM.

al h.

prooflike · April 21, 2004 2:55AM

remember, PCGS always gets the better coins

Russ · April 21, 2004 3:03AM

Okay, ready for the reason behind the numbers as they relate specifically to the Accented Hair Kennedy Half? It has very little to do with "the best coins going to PCGS". Rather, it is born of the differing emphasis at the two companies when granting the DCAM/UCAM designation.

PCGS leans more toward mirror depth when granting the DCAM designation. They like smooth, glassy uninterrupted mirrors and for coins that are VERY strong in that area, they will forgive a little weakness in the frost of the devices. NGC leans more toward the devices, and with excellence in that area will forgive a little weakness in the mirrors.

The Accented Hair rarely - if ever - comes with that "paper white, super nova" frost that can sometimes be found on the regular Kennedy. The bust is just ever so slightly more concave, and the striking not normally as strong. However, the coin can come with amazing mirror depth. Thus, given the slightly different emphasis of the two companies, it makes perfect sense that PCGS would have graded more in DCAM than NGC has graded in UCAM for this particular coin.

There is also some merit to the argument that NGC is easier on the cameo designation than PCGS. Although, as of late, that has not been my experience. The recently graded NGC cameo examples I've seen would have no trouble receiving the cameo designation at PCGS.

Both companies, though, can be a bit inconsistent.

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin · April 21, 2004 4:00AM

A notable example is the business strike Franklin half dollars with the FBL designation.

..........................MS-65FBL...................MS-66FBL...................MS-67FBL

PCGS...................15,852.........................3,189...........................64

NGC.......................3,763............................338............................9

Numbers are cumulative for all dates and taken from R&I Coins March newsletter. The PCGS MS-65FBL number is 4.21 times greater than that of NGC. The MS-66FBL number at PCGS is 9.43 times greater than that at NGC! And the MS-67FBL number at PCGS is 7.11 times greater than that at NGC. Substantial differences.

dorkkarl · April 21, 2004 4:29AM

so...... what would sgs grade 'em?

K S

DCAMFranklin · April 21, 2004 8:41AM

comparing numbers is interesting from the standpoint of trying to prove a point, but it doesn't really do any good without seeing what was submitted and what grades those submittals received.

A.Keets-
Do you take the same exception to D.Hall's use of numbers attempting to validate PCGS' position as "the best"?

Myqqy · April 21, 2004 9:56AM

Very nice thread- I think it would be great if comparisons like this could be made for other varieties within other series, if only so that those of us who do not submit many coins get a better view on the idiosyncrasies of each company. And personally, I feel that pcgs homers need to stop rationalizing every piece of data that suggests that pcgs is not the ultimate supremo in every facet of grading...

XpipedreamR · April 21, 2004 10:38AM

Very interesting analysis, Russ. Thanks.

koynekwest · April 21, 2004 12:47PM

There's no comparison-PCGS is by far the better slabbing company. NGC is no better than a third tier outfit.
Their good reputation is justified only by their longevity in the business.

Android · April 21, 2004 1:08PM

<< A notable example is the business strike Franklin half dollars with the FBL designation.

..........................MS-65FBL...................MS-66FBL...................MS-67FBL

PCGS...................15,852.........................3,189...........................64

NGC.......................3,763............................338............................9

Numbers are cumulative for all dates and taken from R&I Coins March newsletter. The PCGS MS-65FBL number is 4.21 times greater than that of NGC. The MS-66FBL number at PCGS is 9.43 times greater than that at NGC! And the MS-67FBL number at PCGS is 7.11 times greater than that at NGC. Substantial differences. >>

It should also be noted that PCGS and NGC grading of FBL is substantially different. NGC requires both sets of lines to be full, and PCGS does not.

oldcameoproofsguy · April 21, 2004 3:19PM

When comparing NGC vs PCGS on the CAM/DCAM issue and the FBL issue there are other considerations. The NGC is a little more rigid when designating UCAM or FBL to a coin, however, the PCGS is more rigid when it comes to technical grading. So a PCGS MS65FBL could easily be reholdered as a NGC MS66.

In general still, PCGS slabbed coins will command a small premium over a comparable NGC coin. Who knows, maybe the trend will change someday. For now, I think that most feel that the PCGS is still a little more conservative overall.

Shamika · April 21, 2004 11:22PM

"PCGS is the best! PCGS only for me! That's why others trade at a discount, because they just aren't the best! Why look at any other coins than PCGS when they are proven to be the best?"

An interesting comparison for those who think PCGS is tougher than NGC.

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