I'm sad for you for being ripped. However, here's a repeat of the numismatic "golden Rule" often stated here by numerous members: NEVER buy an expensive RAW coin on EBAY, unless you have an iron-clad return guarantee.
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
From reading his eMail it is now crystal clear that this seller knew precisely what he was doing, and that this auction was listed with fraudulent intent. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he wrote that response at the same time he was carefully crafting the wording of the listing.
I STRONGLY recommend that you print a copy of the auction before it either disappears (it should after 90 days) or before the seller makes some kind of change to the listing.
Also, keep your wordy emails to him at a minimum. The more you write, the more you bury yourself. You better believe this guy is keeping every single word you write and if you continue to call him he will complain of harassment.
The fact that you told him you were not expecting the coin to be MS70 is a FOOLISH admission that will certainly be used against you. Dispite the obvious conclusion that the seller was up to no good, an arbitrator might conclude you got exactly what you expected and will therefore allow the auction to stand as is.
I haven't contributed to this thread, but I had a similar experience quite a while ago. If you pursue this, you may be able to recover at least a portion of your payment through eBay's fraud protection insurance and/or get the seller removed from eBay. That makes it worth the effort as far as I'm concerned, regardless of whether the seller gives you a refund directly.
Quite a while ago, before I knew better, I purchased two raw Trade Dollars on eBay. They were, of course, counterfeit, and if I knew then what I know now, I would have been able to tell from the photo posted on the auction page. The seller had the same response as this one when I contacted him: "How do I know you didn't switch the genuine Trade Dollars I sent with counterfeits?"
I filed all of the documentation with eBay - e-mails, the auction page itself, photos, etc., and forwarded all of it to the seller. Perhaps the weight of the evidence intimidated the seller, but as soon as he saw my claim, he sent me a short e-mail: "I'm sorry about this. Please return the coins and I'll send a full refund." I forwarded this to eBay, shipped the coins and got the refund. As soon as his check cleared, I closed the case.
You have a couple of things going for you that I didn't. You have another defrauded bidder. You're both dealers with professional reputations. The terms the seller used, MS70 and steps, aren't merely "catchy phrases," but numismatic terms that have very specific meanings, which the seller must have understood when he used them.
File a fraud claim with eBay. Attach an affidavit. Refer to your professional credentials and the other bidder's experience. File a claim with the consumer protection bureau of the seller's home state. And forward every page to the seller. If nothing else, all of this will bolster your eBay insurance claim and help get the seller booted.
As I read the auction I didn't see it state a refund policy one way or the other. Anyway that is what I remember.
This advice is too late to help in this case but if anyone else is asking for a refund just ask for the refund and do not go into details about what you will do if you don't get the refund.
Sharp-eyed forum members have noted the auction pictures do not match the actual coin. Sounds like a strong case for fraud and misrepresentation.
Just make sure you have high-quality printouts of the auction pages and the pictures. Use a color laser printer, if you can, for the auction pages. Perhaps Kinkos or your local graphics shop has one, and it would be worth the small fee for the printouts. Also a good idea to download the auction pictures and have them printed on high-quality photo paper at any local store that processes digital photos. Again, cheap insurance compared to a $600+ loss due to fraud.
"This advice is too late to help in this case but if anyone else is asking for a refund just ask for the refund and do not go into details about what you will do if you don't get the refund."
Just got off the phone with the buyer of the 64 FS same seller had for auction. See 64 FS
Now there are two of us with the same complaints against this seller lending a great deal of credence to both of our claims.
He will write a polite letter requesting a refund. If no response is forthcoming, he will take the same action as I have already initiated. We will take this as far as we can and hopefully, get this guy off eBay if nothing else.
I was asked a question by greencoach (second high bidder on the 68-D) that I would be interested in hearing from a forum lawyer on.
He wondered if I file a suit here in Vegas against the seller (in N.C.), would he have to appear here in Vegas as a result? It would be smalll claims but I did not have an answer for him. Anybody have advice on this approach?
Thanks everyone!
David
Everything starts and everything stops at precisely the right time for precisely the right reason.
Your a schollar and a gentleman, and have my respect for a learning experiance attitude, but going after this guy will educate others as well and reduce revenue in his pocket for (in my opinion, from threads) fraudulent listings & scans and knowingley missinterpitation of those listings for financial gain. In my opinion the same reverse scan was used for the 64FS as well as your 68D and one that depicted the reverse of a coin minted decades later than stated as I stated in an earlier post and around the time right after you had talked with him on the phone as your optimism was very high as you responded with how "I could say that with the poor quality pictures that were posted ?". There are telltale signs in everything as well as Jeffersons, and my favorite thing the USN taught me was a little saying "Pay Attention to Detail, It will Always Pay you back". Carl's advice is XLT advice, read the fine print, can never be overstated, anyway sorry your 68D did'nt measure up, next time maybe, and don't loose your optimism, my oldlady took mine away. Go getem.
Eastside
Promote the Hobby
Promote The Hobby and Make it a Positive Experience for all, Remember That this Hobby Can Be Fun & Profitable & Profit is Always FUN
I am very sad that I must post this last statement to the boards.
A certain forum fellow "member" with either a bone to pick with me or just likes to "mix" things up brought my thread to the attention of the seller. As I decided to pay for a SquareTrade mediator in an honest attempt to resolve the issue, this fact came out.
As I have said absolutely nothing but post what happened and what is happening, as many members do, I have no fear of his knowing. But I will stop posting further actions regarding the situation.
It is with the greatest sadness that said member (who I will never divulge the identity of) would take it upon himself to attempt to stab me in the back for some sick gratification against me. Let this be a lesson for all of you. There are individuals within our ranks that should they decide to do so, can and will involve themselves in others personal business for any reason that suits them.
Even though we consider ourselves to be a "family" and disagree on various issues very vehemently at times, there is among us those "family" members who do not forget and/or forgive and will run crying to mommy or daddy.
Case Closed
Everything starts and everything stops at precisely the right time for precisely the right reason.
Let this be a lesson for all of you. There are individuals within our ranks that should they decide to do so, can and will involve themselves in others personal business for any reason that suits them.
How sad, but true. I've seen this happen here more than a couple of times since I've been here.
This could be a valuable lesson to those that come here for help. Don't divulge too much info!!....Ken
This forum is a very public place so you must be careful what you say about others- look at the ACG lawsuits that came about because of on-line forums. mike
You should divulge his identity. I'm sure a few of us would like to hear his opinion since he's so motivated about this matter....I'll second that motion....Ken
After reading all of this lengthy thread, I amazingly have to side with the SELLER in this. Although the seller is obviously a small time con artist, he really didn't do as much wrong as the bidders and eventual buyer did. The buyer here made a bunch of mistakes, in my opinion: 1. He took a chance on buying a raw, unseen coin from an unknown seller with NO POSTED RETUN POLICY 2. He bought this coin in a series where a specific attribute (full steps) is highly subjective 3. He bought a coin in "full steps" in which no FS coins of the date are known to exist 4. His common sense did not kick in until he actually saw the coin in person after buying it #4 is very important here. Although the seller is trying to con people, he will only succeed if there are no greedy and somewhat unethical people willing to bid on it (waiting for the proverbial "old lady" to sell on Ebay). I'm sure that in the bidders' contacts with the seller BEFORE the auction had ended, not one had bothered to mention to him that if this truly were a full step coin that it would be a $20,000+ item and he should first send it to PCGS to get its true market value. If the unbelievable were true and this indeed was a full step coin, then who would be the one who was unethical? You could possibly clear your conscience by saying that a grown man (or woman) sold it to you fair and square, but then if it turns out bad like this one did, he is free to say that an adult BOUGHT it fair and square, even if the steps on the coin were completely flat. One last question for the buyer and other supporters of his to ponder- if the nickel arrived in 65+FS would the buyer have immediatley cut a check for $15,000 to the seller because he underpaid? Of course not, and that's the chance we take. We should prepare to get burned once in a while if we're looking for that "old lady".
<< <i>I amazingly have to side with the SELLER in this. Although the seller is obviously a small time con artist >>
Centmaster,
The seller is "obviously" a con artist, yet you're taking his side? Do you sell on eBay? If so, please post your eBay handle here. I'd like to make sure I never bid in one of your auctions.
First of all, no I do not sell on Ebay. I thought my reply might get a little bit of attention. If you haven't read my entire reply, then please do so. I simply stated that BOTH the buyer and seller were at fault here, but since this was an essentially sight-unseen auction on a raw coin with no return policy, then it was the buyer who was more at fault. Russ, since you were the first one to criticize me, then I challenge you to honestly answer my last question about sending said seller a $15,000 check if the coin came and indeed was a FS coin. If you can honestly say that you would, then you would be one of the rarities in our hobby.
<< <i>After reading all of this lengthy thread, I amazingly have to side with the SELLER in this. Although the seller is obviously a small time con artist, he really didn't do as much wrong as the bidders and eventual buyer did. The buyer here made a bunch of mistakes, in my opinion: 1. He took a chance on buying a raw, unseen coin from an unknown seller with NO POSTED RETUN POLICY 2. He bought this coin in a series where a specific attribute (full steps) is highly subjective 3. He bought a coin in "full steps" in which no FS coins of the date are known to exist 4. His common sense did not kick in until he actually saw the coin in person after buying it #4 is very important here. Although the seller is trying to con people, he will only succeed if there are no greedy and somewhat unethical people willing to bid on it (waiting for the proverbial "old lady" to sell on Ebay). I'm sure that in the bidders' contacts with the seller BEFORE the auction had ended, not one had bothered to mention to him that if this truly were a full step coin that it would be a $20,000+ item and he should first send it to PCGS to get its true market value. If the unbelievable were true and this indeed was a full step coin, then who would be the one who was unethical? You could possibly clear your conscience by saying that a grown man (or woman) sold it to you fair and square, but then if it turns out bad like this one did, he is free to say that an adult BOUGHT it fair and square, even if the steps on the coin were completely flat. One last question for the buyer and other supporters of his to ponder- if the nickel arrived in 65+FS would the buyer have immediatley cut a check for $15,000 to the seller because he underpaid? Of course not, and that's the chance we take. We should prepare to get burned once in a while if we're looking for that "old lady". >>
Most of this is merely a matter of opinion. However, #2 above is not really accurate. While there are examples of nickels which could fairly be called either FS or not-FS, this coin does not fit this category. It is not even close to FS.
The buyer did make mistakes in this auction, but I think he did his homework before buying. This seller is absolutely a con artist and as Russ said, "He knew damned well what a REAL FS nickel would be worth". The auction is very misleading with poor quality photos to entice potential buyers to bid high. IMO it's no different than the telemarketing fraud that goes on these days.
Lets look at some of the qutoes from the auction itself.
Due to the poor quality of the pictures I took, I pulled the auction early until I could provide everyone with a better quality picture of the reverse.
Where are they? The pictures are crap.
I had a local dealer scan this coin for me. Unfortunately, he had to remove it from the cellophane to get a better quality scan. I have blown the scan up the best I can, but it clearly shows the steps detail that everyone was interested in. Please see pictures below.
It does? I can't see it. This statement alone clearly talks about step detail in a misleading way.
I know this coin is probably worth alot more than what I am going to get, and no one will give me a solid real value on it verbally, and that is understandable. I am only selling because I need to raise some cash for my home. So, I will just let you all figure out what it is worth.
Leads one to believe that the coin is of GREAT value due to it's rarity. Some would say that this is just good advertising. But IMO, combined with everything else I say it's just a good con.
If we assume that "the seller knew damned well what a 68D FS nickel would be worth" and yet was willing to let it go for a song, then any reasonable person would be highly suspicious of buying it. Since it's almost impossible to ascertain full steps by a scan of the coin, then I stand by every word that I wrote.
Id like to know who the scumbag is who brought this to the sellers attention, as its probably the same scumbag who made some phonecalls in regards to a friends find: see metal detect board for that.
"After reading all of this lengthy thread, I amazingly have to side with the SELLER in this. Although the seller is obviously a small time con artist, he really didn't do as much wrong as the bidders and eventual buyer did."
NO, NO, NO!
The sellers intentions were to deceive which is flat out wrong!
To say the buyer is just as wrong is like saying someone who doesn't lock his door is as guilty as the theif that robs him.
"You should divulge his identity. I'm sure a few of us would like to hear his opinion since he's so motivated about this matter....I'll second that motion...."
Comments
This one is a slimeball, period.
Russ, NCNE
San Diego, CA
I STRONGLY recommend that you print a copy of the auction before it either disappears (it should after 90 days) or before the seller makes some kind of change to the listing.
Also, keep your wordy emails to him at a minimum. The more you write, the more you bury yourself. You better believe this guy is keeping every single word you write and if you continue to call him he will complain of harassment.
The fact that you told him you were not expecting the coin to be MS70 is a FOOLISH admission that will certainly be used against you. Dispite the obvious conclusion that the seller was up to no good, an arbitrator might conclude you got exactly what you expected and will therefore allow the auction to stand as is.
And one more thing: DON'T GIVE UP!!!
I haven't contributed to this thread, but I had a similar experience quite a while ago. If you pursue this, you may be able to recover at least a portion of your payment through eBay's fraud protection insurance and/or get the seller removed from eBay. That makes it worth the effort as far as I'm concerned, regardless of whether the seller gives you a refund directly.
Quite a while ago, before I knew better, I purchased two raw Trade Dollars on eBay. They were, of course, counterfeit, and if I knew then what I know now, I would have been able to tell from the photo posted on the auction page. The seller had the same response as this one when I contacted him: "How do I know you didn't switch the genuine Trade Dollars I sent with counterfeits?"
I filed all of the documentation with eBay - e-mails, the auction page itself, photos, etc., and forwarded all of it to the seller. Perhaps the weight of the evidence intimidated the seller, but as soon as he saw my claim, he sent me a short e-mail: "I'm sorry about this. Please return the coins and I'll send a full refund." I forwarded this to eBay, shipped the coins and got the refund. As soon as his check cleared, I closed the case.
You have a couple of things going for you that I didn't. You have another defrauded bidder. You're both dealers with professional reputations. The terms the seller used, MS70 and steps, aren't merely "catchy phrases," but numismatic terms that have very specific meanings, which the seller must have understood when he used them.
File a fraud claim with eBay. Attach an affidavit. Refer to your professional credentials and the other bidder's experience. File a claim with the consumer protection bureau of the seller's home state. And forward every page to the seller. If nothing else, all of this will bolster your eBay insurance claim and help get the seller booted.
e-mail me here
WINNER:
POTD 8-30-05 (awarded by dthigpen)
POTD 9-8-05 (awarded by gsaguy)
GSAGUY Slam 12-10-04
This will be a frustrating experience. (as mine was). But, persist. You will get your money back, and hopefully will get this guy off ebay.
I also agree with limiting the wording of the e-mails. This guy has and will continute to bury himself.
mark
This advice is too late to help in this case but if anyone else is asking for a refund just ask for the refund and do not go into details about what you will do if you don't get the refund.
Just make sure you have high-quality printouts of the auction pages and the pictures. Use a color laser printer, if you can, for the auction pages. Perhaps Kinkos or your local graphics shop has one, and it would be worth the small fee for the printouts. Also a good idea to download the auction pictures and have them printed on high-quality photo paper at any local store that processes digital photos. Again, cheap insurance compared to a $600+ loss due to fraud.
Carl is 100% correct.
Just got off the phone with the buyer of the 64 FS same seller had for auction. See 64 FS
Now there are two of us with the same complaints against this seller lending a great deal of credence to both of our claims.
He will write a polite letter requesting a refund. If no response is forthcoming, he will take the same action as I have already initiated. We will take this as far as we can and hopefully, get this guy off eBay if nothing else.
I was asked a question by greencoach (second high bidder on the 68-D) that I would be interested in hearing from a forum lawyer on.
He wondered if I file a suit here in Vegas against the seller (in N.C.), would he have to appear here in Vegas as a result? It would be smalll claims but I did not have an answer for him. Anybody have advice on this approach?
Thanks everyone!
David
Eastside
Promote the Hobby
A certain forum fellow "member" with either a bone to pick with me or just likes to "mix" things up brought my thread to the attention of the seller. As I decided to pay for a SquareTrade mediator in an honest attempt to resolve the issue, this fact came out.
As I have said absolutely nothing but post what happened and what is happening, as many members do, I have no fear of his knowing. But I will stop posting further actions regarding the situation.
It is with the greatest sadness that said member (who I will never divulge the identity of) would take it upon himself to attempt to stab me in the back for some sick gratification against me. Let this be a lesson for all of you. There are individuals within our ranks that should they decide to do so, can and will involve themselves in others personal business for any reason that suits them.
Even though we consider ourselves to be a "family" and disagree on various issues very vehemently at times, there is among us those "family" members who do not forget and/or forgive and will run crying to mommy or daddy.
Case Closed
How sad, but true. I've seen this happen here more than a couple of times since I've been here.
This could be a valuable lesson to those that come here for help. Don't divulge too much info!!....Ken
<< <i>(who I will never divulge the identity of) >>
You should divulge his identity. I'm sure a few of us would like to hear his opinion since he's so motivated about this matter.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>It is with the greatest sadness that said member (who I will never divulge the identity of) >>
Out the weasel.
Russ, NCNE
The buyer here made a bunch of mistakes, in my opinion:
1. He took a chance on buying a raw, unseen coin from an unknown seller with NO POSTED RETUN POLICY
2. He bought this coin in a series where a specific attribute (full steps) is highly subjective
3. He bought a coin in "full steps" in which no FS coins of the date are known to exist
4. His common sense did not kick in until he actually saw the coin in person after buying it
#4 is very important here. Although the seller is trying to con people, he will only succeed if there are no greedy and somewhat unethical people willing to bid on it (waiting for the proverbial "old lady" to sell on Ebay). I'm sure that in the bidders' contacts with the seller BEFORE the auction had ended, not one had bothered to mention to him that if this truly were a full step coin that it would be a $20,000+ item and he should first send it to PCGS to get its true market value. If the unbelievable were true and this indeed was a full step coin, then who would be the one who was unethical? You could possibly clear your conscience by saying that a grown man (or woman) sold it to you fair and square, but then if it turns out bad like this one did, he is free to say that an adult BOUGHT it fair and square, even if the steps on the coin were completely flat. One last question for the buyer and other supporters of his to ponder- if the nickel arrived in 65+FS would the buyer have immediatley cut a check for $15,000 to the seller because he underpaid? Of course not, and that's the chance we take. We should prepare to get burned once in a while if we're looking for that "old lady".
<< <i>I amazingly have to side with the SELLER in this. Although the seller is obviously a small time con artist >>
Centmaster,
The seller is "obviously" a con artist, yet you're taking his side? Do you sell on eBay? If so, please post your eBay handle here. I'd like to make sure I never bid in one of your auctions.
Russ, NCNE
Know your coins
Glen
<< <i>If you haven't read my entire reply, then please do so. >>
I read your entire reply, and was shaking my head in amazement at every word.
<< <i>then I challenge you to honestly answer my last question about sending said seller a $15,000 check if the coin came and indeed was a FS coin. >>
I wouldn't send the seller a plugged nickel. He knew damned well what a REAL FS nickel would be worth. That was the entire crux of his con.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>After reading all of this lengthy thread, I amazingly have to side with the SELLER in this. Although the seller is obviously a small time con artist, he really didn't do as much wrong as the bidders and eventual buyer did.
The buyer here made a bunch of mistakes, in my opinion:
1. He took a chance on buying a raw, unseen coin from an unknown seller with NO POSTED RETUN POLICY 2. He bought this coin in a series where a specific attribute (full steps) is highly subjective
3. He bought a coin in "full steps" in which no FS coins of the date are known to exist
4. His common sense did not kick in until he actually saw the coin in person after buying it
#4 is very important here. Although the seller is trying to con people, he will only succeed if there are no greedy and somewhat unethical people willing to bid on it (waiting for the proverbial "old lady" to sell on Ebay). I'm sure that in the bidders' contacts with the seller BEFORE the auction had ended, not one had bothered to mention to him that if this truly were a full step coin that it would be a $20,000+ item and he should first send it to PCGS to get its true market value. If the unbelievable were true and this indeed was a full step coin, then who would be the one who was unethical? You could possibly clear your conscience by saying that a grown man (or woman) sold it to you fair and square, but then if it turns out bad like this one did, he is free to say that an adult BOUGHT it fair and square, even if the steps on the coin were completely flat. One last question for the buyer and other supporters of his to ponder- if the nickel arrived in 65+FS would the buyer have immediatley cut a check for $15,000 to the seller because he underpaid? Of course not, and that's the chance we take. We should prepare to get burned once in a while if we're looking for that "old lady". >>
Most of this is merely a matter of opinion. However, #2 above is not really accurate. While there
are examples of nickels which could fairly be called either FS or not-FS, this coin does not fit this
category. It is not even close to FS.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
<< <i>Again the reverse picture is of a later coin (looks like something from the 90's)
Know your coins
Glen >>
The picture is so poor it's difficult to be certain, but it looks very
much like a 74-D. It's nearly certainly this or the '71, 2, or 3-D.
Due to the poor quality of the pictures I took, I pulled the auction early until I could provide everyone with a better quality picture of the reverse.
Where are they? The pictures are crap.
I had a local dealer scan this coin for me. Unfortunately, he had to remove it from the cellophane to get a better quality scan. I have blown the scan up the best I can, but it clearly shows the steps detail that everyone was interested in. Please see pictures below.
It does? I can't see it. This statement alone clearly talks about step detail in a misleading way.
I know this coin is probably worth alot more than what I am going to get, and no one will give me a solid real value on it verbally, and that is understandable. I am only selling because I need to raise some cash for my home. So, I will just let you all figure out what it is worth.
Leads one to believe that the coin is of GREAT value due to it's rarity. Some would say that this is just good advertising. But IMO, combined with everything else I say it's just a good con.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
I agree that FS is not subjective. In the world of numismatics, it means at least five full steps.
Mark
scumbag who made some phonecalls in regards to a friends find: see metal detect board for that.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
NO, NO, NO!
The sellers intentions were to deceive which is flat out wrong!
To say the buyer is just as wrong is like saying someone who doesn't lock his door is as guilty as the theif that robs him.
I also second the motion.
Where does this stand?