1968-D and now 64 FS Jefferson---LAST Update
spy88
Posts: 764 ✭✭
Everyone,
Rehash of events---
About 5 weeks ago, a seller on eBay advertised a 68-D still in the mint cello. The pics were so out of focus, I emailed him questions about the coin, especially the steps. He answered that he wasn't that knowledgeable about what I was talking about, so explained to him what FS meant and how important it was to the coin and any collectors interested in bidding on it.
Evidently, others had done the same, so he pulled the auction, took it to a dealer who scanned it and put it up again, this time advertising it as a MS70 FS. See !68-D. The scan was also worthless but I had talked to him on the phone about the validity of the FS and he continued to assure me it was. Well, I was at my computer when it closed and won the bid @ $661. A "greencoach" tried to snipe it but I caught it in time.
Anyway, just got today. MS62/63 with 3-3-3-2. Bag marks everywhere, strike similar to the early 60's (mooshy or soft), no major hits. Face value for all intents and purposes.
The same seller had a 64 advertised as a 5-5-5-5. Wasn't able to be at my computer for the close, so let it go. Went to a Kips Coins over in Hawaii AKA Bison Rarities. Contacted Robert last week to see if he had gotten his. Not yet. Called him 45 minutes ago, told him of my scam and he said he was just on his way to the PO to see if the 64 had come in yet. He is going to get back to me regardless of what he receives. If his is bogus as mine, we will persue avenues eBay and SafeHarbor has for us. I do not hold out hope at this point. Unfortunately, I didn't save any email correspondence (stupid, I know) and have no valid reason why I didn't keep them. But it still boils down to his listing it as a FS and a MS70. Neither true. Even if he says the FS stood for full strike, this can be proven false.
Greencoach also emailed me about two hours ago interested in what I got and sent him a email similar to this post.
Yea, I know. $700. out the window. That's what I sent him to cover his phone call to me and special shipping instructions for the coin. It really ain't the money (less then a weeks net for me) but the filling of a hole with a nice example of a 68-D FS was my desire. It could have been as advertised (MS70 w/5 or 6 across) and I wouldn't have slabbed/sold it no matter the offers I might have received. I know what it could have fetched if it were that good! Similar to Larrys 54-S 6-6-6-6 @ OLCoin.
54-S 6-6-6-6
Anyways, I'll move on. Based on Roberts response, will go with the flow. And since I opened my fat mouth about this, I'm fessing up to my loss. Many were hopeful for me and some were very pessimistic (understandable). "If it appears to be too good to be true, it probably is." Hate the person that coined this phrase right now!!!!
Thank you to all who wished me the best on this!
Here it is in all its fuglory.
And the steps.
Stoke up the fires gang! I need PAIN to put this behind me (not really---it already is). But if you have something negative to say here, please make sure YOU have never bought a coin for more then it was worth! Hope there are some of you out there, but doubt it. But if so, congratulations are in order.
Follow-ups may be posted after Robert gets the 64 and talks to me.
David
Rehash of events---
About 5 weeks ago, a seller on eBay advertised a 68-D still in the mint cello. The pics were so out of focus, I emailed him questions about the coin, especially the steps. He answered that he wasn't that knowledgeable about what I was talking about, so explained to him what FS meant and how important it was to the coin and any collectors interested in bidding on it.
Evidently, others had done the same, so he pulled the auction, took it to a dealer who scanned it and put it up again, this time advertising it as a MS70 FS. See !68-D. The scan was also worthless but I had talked to him on the phone about the validity of the FS and he continued to assure me it was. Well, I was at my computer when it closed and won the bid @ $661. A "greencoach" tried to snipe it but I caught it in time.
Anyway, just got today. MS62/63 with 3-3-3-2. Bag marks everywhere, strike similar to the early 60's (mooshy or soft), no major hits. Face value for all intents and purposes.
The same seller had a 64 advertised as a 5-5-5-5. Wasn't able to be at my computer for the close, so let it go. Went to a Kips Coins over in Hawaii AKA Bison Rarities. Contacted Robert last week to see if he had gotten his. Not yet. Called him 45 minutes ago, told him of my scam and he said he was just on his way to the PO to see if the 64 had come in yet. He is going to get back to me regardless of what he receives. If his is bogus as mine, we will persue avenues eBay and SafeHarbor has for us. I do not hold out hope at this point. Unfortunately, I didn't save any email correspondence (stupid, I know) and have no valid reason why I didn't keep them. But it still boils down to his listing it as a FS and a MS70. Neither true. Even if he says the FS stood for full strike, this can be proven false.
Greencoach also emailed me about two hours ago interested in what I got and sent him a email similar to this post.
Yea, I know. $700. out the window. That's what I sent him to cover his phone call to me and special shipping instructions for the coin. It really ain't the money (less then a weeks net for me) but the filling of a hole with a nice example of a 68-D FS was my desire. It could have been as advertised (MS70 w/5 or 6 across) and I wouldn't have slabbed/sold it no matter the offers I might have received. I know what it could have fetched if it were that good! Similar to Larrys 54-S 6-6-6-6 @ OLCoin.
54-S 6-6-6-6
Anyways, I'll move on. Based on Roberts response, will go with the flow. And since I opened my fat mouth about this, I'm fessing up to my loss. Many were hopeful for me and some were very pessimistic (understandable). "If it appears to be too good to be true, it probably is." Hate the person that coined this phrase right now!!!!
Thank you to all who wished me the best on this!
Here it is in all its fuglory.
And the steps.
Stoke up the fires gang! I need PAIN to put this behind me (not really---it already is). But if you have something negative to say here, please make sure YOU have never bought a coin for more then it was worth! Hope there are some of you out there, but doubt it. But if so, congratulations are in order.
Follow-ups may be posted after Robert gets the 64 and talks to me.
David
Everything starts and everything stops at precisely the right time for precisely the right reason.
0
Comments
Sorry about the bad news. I think you can print the previous thread and use it as evidence.
Have you asked the seller about returning the coin?
Mark
Russ, NCNE
And just to show how things have been going for me lately, went to breakfast at a locals casino. Had a nice blueberry pancake stack with bacon and delicious coffee. Then blew $350. playing video poker! Only hit one 4 of-a-kind.
Bummed me out!
No one listened
To Bad
Glen
<< <i> guess we all learned a lesson here! >>
The lesson I learned is how I can sell pocket change for $700! mike
Yea, I know. $700. out the window.
Wait -- why are you going to allow this to stand? Why don't you demand your money back immediately, and if it is not returned, take the necessary steps to have it forcibly removed from the seller's hands?
Also, what does this mean? What was he doing on 3/31/04 that results in his id appearing twice?
It means that until I hear from the buyer of the 64 that is supposed to be a FS, I will not make contact with him or eBay about it. If the 64 is also a BB scam, there will be two of us that will take the appropriate measures. The "out the window" should have been followed with "for now".
As for his ID thing, I saw that too before I won the bid. Didn't seem suspicious then and doesn't now. Why he changed it to the same as he had---only he knows.
Not going to flame you, but the criticism is unfair. When a seller blatantly misrepresents the condition of a purported MS70 coin, "blame" is both appropriate and necessary.
Spy did far more than just "bid . . . with a blurry scan." As he made clear in this post, he not only received assurances from another auction winner who purportedly saw this coin in-hand, Spy had further communications with the seller concerning the technical requirements for an FS designation.
I don't understand how the other auction winner could have so thoroughly erred on this coin's condition -- instead of a 70, it's more like an 07. But if these facts are accurate, responsibility lies with the seller for claiming a piece of trash was a MS70 gem.
Reviewing the Ebay auction text and description ("Best nickel I have seen anywhere. There is no doubt in my mind that this coin is top of the line."), and comparing them with photos of the actual coin, my money is on Spy telling the truth.
darktone, it seems as if you may have missed details of ALL that transpired up to my bidding this coin. If you would please go back a few pages and read (or re-read) my original thread "1968-D MS64/65/66 FS Jeff", you will see why I bid on this coin.
Monsta, I'm not going to flame you. Like I said beneath my posted pics of the 68-D above, you must be one of the very few that has NEVER bought a coin that wasn't worth what you paid for it! I congratulate you again! But I must point out that after re-reading everything I have said here, YOU are the first to bring up the word "Blame". If you're thinking that that is what I am doing with the seller, hmm, gee...he lists it as a 1968-D FS in MS70 condition. Granted the pics were almost worse then none, but don't you think lying about your auction is cause for a buyer to put the "blame" at the sellers door?
<< <i>darktone, it seems as if you may have missed details of ALL that transpired up to my bidding this coin. If you would please go back a few pages and read (or re-read) my original thread "1968-D MS64/65/66 FS Jeff", you will see why I bid on this coin. >>
I don't collect these coins so I don't know there value but I think the only detail that would make me pay $700 is that it was in a PCGS/NGC slab and graded at high enough to be worth it. I am sorry for your loss but I think you should use a little common sense and don't believe everything ebay sellers tell you. mike
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
If he sent you a 68-D dime, or a counterfeit nickel, or did not deliver the coin, they could, would intervene. But grading disputes? No way.
I know you feel bad, but I have to ask: Are you perhaps mentally handicapped in some way? Bidding that $$ on a raw coin with no return priv. is just not a rational thing to do.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
David I seriously hope this works out well for you. Even if this hadnt been posted on the board, I probably would have tryed to buy it and make a score. As bad as My grading skills are, once I recieved it, I would have figured out I was taken. The moral you taught me is for a coin of said magnitude and money, its nessasary to buy those type coins "sight seen."
as for the scumbag who sold it, he knows exactly what he did, and all the ebay questions comfirmed to him he had a bunch of suckers in tow.
HANG HIM HIGH
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I feel strongly about persuing legal action if necessary as I was in a similar situation last year. It took 3 months and a legal threat, but I got my money back.
Mark
What's the difference between this auction: LINK And the one Spy got burned on ?
I hate to think this way but it might be worth considering while you plan your battle.
I truely hope the best for you.
Aaron
to step back and ask yourself what the odds are in this case. Here's someone who admittedly
doesn't know squat from coins selling a blurry picture. You just have to assume the worst
case when dealing with that. Before you do anything else, file a buyer's complaint with paypal
and get it on record. Ship the man back his 5-cents (insured with a tracking #). You will
at least then have a hand on $400 of your money. Don't wait for you friend to get back to
you. His case is irrelevant.
Please check out my eBay auctions!
My WLH Short Set Registry Collection
The difference is the claim of full steps. A full step 68-D is very rare (PCGS has not certified one yet). I have seen one certified by ANACS as five full steps which sold for over $2000! The coin in my opinion would not get FS at PCGS.
Mark
Politely insist on a refund TODAY!!!!
If he stalls, go after him with both guns blazing. If somebody scammed me a weeks wages, I'd be on an airplane to his address looking to get my money back one way or another.
<< <i>The difference is the claim of full steps. A full step 68-D is very rare (PCGS has not certified one yet). I have seen one certified by ANACS as five full steps which sold for over $2000! The coin in my opinion would not get FS at PCGS. >>
Ok........... It sounds like a crap shoot then...right ? I see '68-D Jeffersons for sale all the time. Quite a few in the mint cello.
I have even seen a full OBW roll (advertised but obviously difficult to verify) of '68-D's that would seem to be even more of a crap shoot, but still a long shot.
I can see the desire to have one in the FS designation, but i also see quite a few possibles out there that won't cost me a weeks wages.
So sorry to hear this did not work as you planned. I was was really rooting for you. I have to admit you have some pretty big balls by bidding on that one. $700 is a considerable amount of money, but IMO your gamble was worth it. You made an investment, this was no different than buying a stock on a tip. Sometimes they work out, sometimes not. I'm sure all of us have lost that in the stock market.
Being a very cynical person, (sometimes a MAJOR fault), I don't think I would ever believe what an ebay seller tells me. All the reassurance in the world would not convince me unless I could see it with my own two eyes.
I sincerely hope you can come to a reasonable resolution on this one. Again I am rooting for you.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I see '68-D Jeffersons for sale all the time. Quite a few in the mint cello.
I have even seen a full OBW roll >>
You could buy every one listed on eBay every day for a year and likely never find one in full steps. They are that rare.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You could buy every one listed on eBay every day for a year and likely never find one in full steps. They are that rare. >>
But on the flip side there's always that slim chance it could turn out good.
I guess the lesson here is to be as well informed as possible before commiting to a large purchase. I am learning an infinite amount of knowledge from just my 1 month of being here. I'll be the first to admit that i've been stubborn as hell on a few things. Just keep beating it into me and i'll come around
Thanks to all of you for educating me.
Spy: I'm very sorry that i had to learn something from your unfortunate situation. I hope you take the appropriate actions and end up getting your money back.
I'm going to take a chance on some of these '68-D auctions just for my own edification. I'll post pics as they come in.
Edit to add: Even in light of the fraudulent pics, his "ignorance" about coins doesn't hold water either. If he was smart enough to claim this was a full step, then he obviously knows the nuances of the coin market.
<< <i>Look at the pillar detail and window detail, clearly not the same coin. >>
Wow, Most definately not the same coin in my opinion. The reverse of the coin you received is not as sharp as the cropped pic coin pictured.
I would see that as definate recourse.
He just took out the picture. That is the last time I will ever buy from him.
LOOK AT THE PICTURE REMOVED AUCTION !!
San Diego, CA
tell from the lousy picture. It is not a '68-D because this reverse wasn't used until
1971.
<< <i>I got a pcgs ms66fs nickel that was not the coin picture on the auction and the seller still will not give me a refund !! >>
I guess I must have missed the negative you left the seller?
Russ, NCNE
San Diego, CA
<< <i>What good will that do anyways, its not going to affect his rating that much and he will neg me back. >>
It would warn other bidders and possibly make the feedback system slightly less useless than it is.
Russ, NCNE
First, I did send the seller a polite request for refund thru eBay. Here is the letter.
"The 68-D FS MS70 Jefferson you sent me is not FS nor is it MS70. I opened your package when received with a witness on hand and will swear to this. You said you would refund me if it would not grade MS65 or if it was not FS. As it is neither, I am asking you to stand by your word and remit refund. If you do not do so, this is what will follow.
I am in contact with Kips Coins owner, Bobert, the winner of your 64 FS. If his is not as advertised, he as well as I, will be persuing all avenues available to us to obtain refunds if you do not do so on your own. If you insist on stating that your given grade and attribute for this coin came from a "dealer", I will insist on this dealers name, store name, address, phone # and email address. He will be called to testify. If I do not hear from you within 72 hours, or before Sunday the 11th @ 10 P.M. your time, I will notify eBay/SafeHarbor of said auction misrepresentation with ALL retained emails between us before/after close, and details of our conversation.
I will also file a formal complaint with SquareTrade regarding the receiving of a "significantly misrepresented item" that is against eBays rules and regs governing sellers auctions. I will also file a complaint with the IFCC (Internet Fraud Complaint Center). They are a collaboration between the National White Collar Crime Center AND the FBI. Their mission is to address and investigate fraud committed over the internet.
There is more that I can AND WILL DO if you force me. I will not list them to alert you. As for your 100% feedback, it will no longer be so. You may be able to remove the neg (not negged yet) but after all the complaints I will file concerning this, you will probably be banned from eBay anyway.
I really do not want to do this to you. But you will leave me no choice if you do not respond and/or send refund. Remember, Kips Coins owner will be doing the same things (I am forwarding all that I do so he can follow). I'm telling you the truth! You do not want me to go through with all this, but I will, I guarantee you. Easy as sitting at my computer.
So please, for your sake, just remit a refund. Otherwise, you will have a lot of answering to do to alot of different people with different agencies that WILL side with me on this issue! It is up to you now."
HIS REPLY:
"The coin I sent you is the coin you bid on and obviously received. Whether you have switched the coin with something else or what, I have no idea as to what you did with it when you received it. Anyone in this world could say there was a witness present when opening the package, which I also expected you to say. You tried to back out of paying for this item even when the auction closed and I was almost forced to file a NPB claim against you, so I knew there would be a problem with you regarding this entire transaction, and it has been since you placed the first bid on this item. You were requesting that I have people sign documents and letters (his "dealer"), which simply could not be done. As far as the coin dealer who assissted me with the pictures, he has done nothing wrong. He took some pictures and made an opinion on the coin, that is all he has done. There is nothing illegal about giving an opinion on something.
You can contact eBay as well, as I have reviewed the listing for the auction, and there is no fraud or attempted fraud involved in this case. I did not list the coin you purchased as being a 5 Full Step coin to begin with, which is obviously what you thought the coin was or better. There is nothing in the listing that even reads anywhere close to those words. Read the listing correctly, which you obviously did not do. Because you did not read the listing properly, is not my fault. The listing also states that pictures were taken to answer questions regarding the steps, not to state that it was a 5 full step coin. The coin you received is a 1968D nickel that has steps and that is what the auction was for. You were also aware that the coin may not exactly be an MS70 and you knew that in advance as well. The MS70 title was solely used to draw attention to the item up for auction and you were aware of that too. Over half of the people using eBay, use catchy titles to draw attention to their items, which is not illegal or against eBay rules. It is clearly stated in the auction to email me with any questions.
I did not guarantee a refund in the auction listing and therefore do not owe you any refund. You can leave neg feedback, which you have the right to do. I also reserve the right to leave neg feedback. But, do not slander me and contact other members who have nothing to do with the auction you won, in an attempt to have them thinking I have frauded them, because you bid and won an item that you claim is unworthy. Many people gave me their opinions on this coin, and that is what I used to list it and you were aware of that. I made no guarantees that what anyone stated was fact or fiction.
I talked to you about a refund through IMs and emails, but it was not guaranteed, neither in the auction listing, nor in the emails we exchanged. The auction listing prevails over everything, as it is the binding written agreement. An email is not a binding agreement between two parties. I never stated that I would offer a refund if the item was not 5 Full Steps either. You bought this item expecting more than what was being auctioned, and you were made aware, on several occasions by me, that I was not a professional coin grader as well, and your judgement as to what an item is worth is solely your responsibility, not mine.
You may email me back if you wish to discuss anything further. Otherwise, contact eBay and file your claim and I will respond to them. I have not misrepresented anything, nor have I committed any fraud. Also, please do not call my home anymore. If you wish to discuss anything, just email me."
MY RESPONSE:
"Now that I have your email address, I will not call you at your home. You obviously knew it was me that tried calling you twice. Are you going to tell me you weren't home or was it because you knew it was me? Doesn't matter.
We are at the first stage in trying to rectify our "differences" per eBays suggestions and rules regarding disputes. I am forced to do this.
The coin you sent me and yes, received, is not in question for its authenticity. It is a 1968-D Jefferson nickel. Worth exactly 5 cents. My witness did see me open the package and watched me photograph same for reference. He will swear to this. As you state you "expected" me to say this makes me think you also "expected" me to do exactly what I am doing now...asking for a refund. Why? Because you knew what you were sending me could never be compared to what you trumped up the coin to be. If the coin you advertised was what you had sent me, there would not be/could not be any reason for me to want a refund.
The simple fact (and it IS a fact) is that you auctioned this coin as a FS. Every coin collector/dealer in the U.S. knows what this attribute stands for, and so do you. And you also knew that the coin you would be sending me would never qualify as such with any grading service, collector or dealer. You also auctioned this coin as a MS70. Although I admit I did not expect it to grade this highest of all grades, the point is, you advertised it as such. You did not put "maybe" or "possibly" or "could be". You stated it as fact, just as with the FS in the heading. Then you go on to say..."prooflike qualities", "strike is perfect on both sides",..."this coin is top of the line",..."Best nickel I have seen anywhere". All these statements are a direct correlation to and a reinforcement of the heading. There are other statements I could quote directly from your write-up that have the same effect on a bidder interested in the coin as listed. They are all branches of the same tree, your heading!
As for what you think isn't fraud, I think you underestimate eBay, SquareTrade, IFCC, and other agencies I will contact. They will read your listing exactly as I have. That the heading was for a specific coin in a specific grade with a specific attribute---FS. Your write-up enhanced and elaborated on the heading. Lying about its grade and calling it just a "catchy title" won't fly, with me, eBay or the other agencies you seem determined to force me to go to. It's called "false advertising" and a "significantly misrepresented item". This last a quote from SquareTrade regarding online disputes from eBay auctions.
As for a guarantee, there is no need for one. Your auction page for this coin will speak for that better then any guarantee you could have put in it. You DID verbally state in our phone conversation that if this coin did not grade at least MS65, you would refund me. I fully expect you to deny this as you know I cannot prove it. Again---no matter.
Feedback? You honestly think I care if you neg me? When all is said and done, I will easily have it removed. You will be lucky to retain an acct with eBay. Slander? Who is slandering you? I am simply in contact with another collector that just happens to be the buyer of your 64 FS. We can and will continue to talk about anything and anyone we want to.
You say I bought this item expecting more then what was being auctioned. WRONG! I bought this item in good faith based on the listing as headed and as described. This is all I had to go by. I bid on a 1968 D FS Jefferson Nickel in Mint Cello MS70. Your heading. I won the auction, paid the amount and FULLY expected the same to be delivered to me. Our correspondence simply furthered my belief in its authenticity, as you intended it to do. If necessary, I can have Rick (greencoach, second high bidder) attest to the fact he also was doing the same. Rick also told me he has a email of your offer to refund his money had he won the auction and not been satisfied. It is good for him but not for me? Why? Because I won it.
One last point. No one has to be an expert grader to realize the coin I received and the coin you advertised, are two different coins. IMO, you knew this when you listed it. I also think you knew that your offering of such a rare coin would draw big money. I think your blurry pictures were done on purpose. I don't think there is a dealer in the background who provided you with the reverse blurred image. I think that the individual that supposedly visited you and saw the coin is none other then you and you had the bid retracted/removed from the bidders list. I think he is/was a shill name for you or a friend of yours. I think you have done everything from start to finish with the idea to scam somebody out of some money. You laid it all out, planned it, executed it and got what you wanted. But the biggest problem is your listing. There was no way to alter it after-the-fact. Unfortunately for you, it "prevails over everything" as you put it. If there had been a "maybe" or "might" or "possibly", I wouldn't be writing this to you now. But you didn't.
I can tell from your letter you are a educated, very literate individual. But you are a scam artist. I also, am educated and very literate. But unlike you, I have principles. I trusted you and your auction. Now you deserve everything I AM going to force you to put up with unless I get a refund." [Dated Thursday the 8th]
No response yet.
I have done as much as I can with eBay and other agencies to date. There are time frames for some that has me waiting another week or two. Will persue to the bitter end, guys! With or without a refund, he will be asked to defend his auction, what it says, and why he sent me a piece of junk.
David
ttt for those who have not seen the latest yet.
David
auction: This auction is for a 1968 D FS Jefferson Nickel
Well the fight is on. The seller hopes you simply will go away. Stick to your guns on this one, even if it takes a year or more, dozens of phone calls and letters to the appropriate authorities, and a trip to small claims court. Get your hard-earned capital back and ensure this seller doesn't profit from his/her fraud.
please spy don't giveup till this clown gets his commings.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
1. Exercise caution when buying raw coins sight unseen from a seller you are unfamiliar with.
2. Never base a decision to buy on dubius pictures.
3. Sellers feigning ignorance in listings is generally a warning to avoid their auctions.
4. If you don't have a verifiable return policy, don't make the purchase.
5. Avoid "big score" syndrome via the internet at all costs.
6. Listen to the advice you're given when you ask for it. Several knowledgeable collectors/dealers warned against this purchase from the start.
7. Always use Redi-Whip on humble pie. From personal experience, it tastes better and makes it easier to swallow.
al h.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill