Accugrade's Press Release

Barry · April 7, 2004 12:05AM

"an orchestrated conspiracy"

PCGS board members are next. Look out!

jbsteven · April 7, 2004 12:08AM

geb209 · April 7, 2004 12:12AM

ditto

Not to turn this back into a thread discussing the merits of their case, but is it clear that they have jurisdiction and venue over the defendants (assuming that they dont have any contacts with the state of Florida). I've read the complaint and it appears that some of the defendants were residents of Florida. Ingoring those people, what about the others? I seem to remember from law school that you need some amount of "minimum contacts" with Florida in order to be hauled into a Florida court. I didn't think it was clear under the law that posting something on an internet board subjected you to jurisdiction in Florida if someone in Florida happened to read it. Dunno though.

poorguy · April 7, 2004 12:16AM

I wonder if the judge will be a coin collector. Now that would be funny.

FC57Coins · April 7, 2004 12:18AM

I notice that they mention Collector's Universe in the press release - I wonder which troll they were while prowling through here

aRabidChipmunk · April 7, 2004 12:18AM

<< None of these Defendants were ever ASA Accugrade, Inc. customers. >>

and then the very next sentence...

<< Only one of them has ever submitted coins to ASA Accugrade, Inc. >>

Aren't those statements contradictory?

ddink · April 7, 2004 12:20AM

Good morning, today I'd like to talk to you about the Tri-Lateral Commission...

newsman · April 7, 2004 12:29AM

"None of these defendants ever bought or sold ACG coins (except to denigrate the product)."

This could be construed as a libelous statement if any of the defendants bought an Accugrade coin in good faith. Can you say "countersuit"?

aRabidChipmunk · April 7, 2004 12:34AM

None, all, never, always, etc...

Be very very careful in the use of those terms. All it takes is one exception to disprove.

Goldfinger · April 7, 2004 12:58AM

I suggested this in an previous thread about the suit...

When ACG claims there was an "orchestrated conspiracy" by a competitor that allegedly bullied dealers and the numismatic community, isn't this an anti-trust issue?

Of course, that kind of claim would involve taking on PCGS directly, and ACG could never win. No, it's easier to target individuals who have made some over-the-top public statements in the hopes of chilling further negative commentary. It might even work.

Shamika · April 7, 2004 1:01AM

No comment.

PhillyJoe · April 7, 2004 1:03AM

A good reputation and credibility is earned by your business practices; you can't destroy something that doesn't exist.

Joe

nwcs · April 7, 2004 1:05AM

Where's the popcorn?

K6AZ · April 7, 2004 1:05AM

<< No, it's easier to target individuals who have made some over-the-top public statements in the hopes of chilling further negative commentary. It might even work. >>

Don't count on it. I am one stubborn

.

jbsteven · April 7, 2004 1:10AM

<< Don't count on it. I am one stubborn . >>

I will vouch for this.

flaminio · April 7, 2004 1:11AM

cosmicdebris · April 7, 2004 1:13AM

nwcs · April 7, 2004 1:27AM

<<

>>

There's the popcorn!!

Tootawl · April 7, 2004 1:33AM

Why don't you see ACG at any of the major coins shows? I didn't see them at FUN and I've never seen them in Baltimore.

dorkkarl · April 7, 2004 1:39AM

<< the Hagers have hired the Law Firm of Bogin, Munns & Munns of Orlando, Florida >>

the law firm of Bogus, Monks & Mumbles?

K S

dorkkarl · April 7, 2004 1:41AM

this is funny:

ASA-Accugrade had never had a major
complaint filed against us in 20 years. The
same goes for Coin World in 6 years. Hard to
believe but it's a fact.

(my emphasis)

K S

UncleJoe · April 7, 2004 1:43AM

With all due respect, I think ACG has a case.

With the exception of the obvious "never" inconsistencies and I'm not sure how "orchestrated" the actions of the named individuals were, the claims in the lawsuit for the most part did take place.

Now, what that might be worth in the lawsuit I guess we will find out in the future as well as whether individuals have the "right" to lash out at what they see is wrong without consequences.

Joe.

nwcs · April 7, 2004 1:44AM

<< 

<< the Hagers have hired the Law Firm of Bogin, Munns & Munns of Orlando, Florida >>

the law firm of Bogus, Monks & Mumbles?

K S >>

The Three Stooges used to use Dewey, Cheatem & Howe law firm.

newsman · April 7, 2004 1:48AM

<< With all due respect, I think ACG has a case.

With the exception of the obvious "never" inconsistencies and I'm not sure how "orchestrated" the actions of the named individuals were, the claims in the lawsuit for the most part did take place.

Now, what that might be worth in the lawsuit I guess we will find out in the future as well as whether individuals have the "right" to lash out at what they see is wrong without consequences.

Joe. >>

Maybe so, but to win Accugrade will have to prove both that there was a conspiracy and that the claims made against the company were false and malicious in intent. If what the defendants have said about Accugrade can be proven true, their case falls apart.

Purple73 · April 7, 2004 1:49AM

I don't quite get what this is all about. I'm not the brightest light bulb in the house here's what I'm thinking. I know that if you get a slabbed ACG coin off of Ebay(from what I have read) the coin is almost always overgraded or graded improperly. To me, knowing the above, I would not send my coins to ACG because I would like to have accurate grades for the coins that I submit. If they (perhaps they are going to fast) would slow down a bit and give quality a chance then thier business would grow with a reputation of haveing excellent graders who accurately grade coins. If they did in fact grade accuratley then why do people buy these coins from Ebay , Crack them out , and send them to PCGS or NGC only to have the grades drop 2 points or come back with a AT designation? To me it sounds like flimsy bussiness practices of point the fingers at the ones who you think are trying to take down a business. What they should be doing is an in house quality check first of thier graders and then see how business moves before pointing fingers, I.E. blame game.

Is the what I have stated above about right to the lawsuit?

ealandg · April 7, 2004 1:56AM

<< Don't count on it. I am one stubborn

. >>

Not you!

UncleJoe · April 7, 2004 2:13AM

I know that if you get a slabbed ACG coin off of Ebay(from what I have read) the coin is almost always overgraded or graded improperly.

Says who?

I think the Coin World article pokes a very large hole in the above. In addition, there are discussions about over and undergrades all the time regardless of whose holder it is in. I think it will be very hard to claim that there is a "standard" that can be met accurately all the time, especially for MS coins.

"Eye appeal" can't be sufficientely defined because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Joe.

certifiedsilverdollar · April 7, 2004 2:14AM

I think they have a case in the "whore", and "john" comments.......but as far as their coin grading goes.....NO. They admittedly use their own scale. Yet uncirculated coins are still graded MS60-MS70. POOR to PERFECT. So where is the shortfall? All companies have their own criteria, but stick around the ANA standards, meaning generally an MS65 in a NGC holder would grade as such in a PCGS holder, most of the time. If a MS65 of ACG grades at MS 65, but by ICG, PCS, NCG, etc.........grades at MS63...........somewhere in the scale, they would have to have an undergraded level, to make up for all the overgraded levels, since MS60 is poor and MS70 is perfect. I have personally never seen an overgraded coin in an ACG holder...........so I am stumped. Anyone eles ever see an OVERgraded coin of theirs at any level???

pontiacinf · April 7, 2004 2:15AM

I cant speak for Alan Hagers grading skills or the way they do business, but I do stand behind my statement (freedom of speech and opinion) that DIANE HAGER IS ONE SERIOUSLY UGLY WOMAN.

fishcooker · April 7, 2004 2:17AM

I see them as feeding on a market segment because sometimes problem coins were slabbed by ACG when they would not be slabbed by other majors. Therefore, the more problems they slabbed, the more problems were submitted.

Of course, in the end of that situation the wheels must come off.........you certainly can't improve business by stopping the dealers from submitting.

geb209 · April 7, 2004 2:18AM

<< I know that if you get a slabbed ACG coin off of Ebay(from what I have read) the coin is almost always overgraded or graded improperly.

Says who? >>

Says ACG, that's who. Ever heard of the Accugrade™ grading system? It's not the same ANA standard that everyone else is on. You might better read ACG's website.

Purple73 · April 7, 2004 2:25AM

Thank you

PURPLE!

lava · April 7, 2004 2:30AM

I hope the defendants defend the lawsuit with the mentality of grabbing Alan Hager by the bolls and squeezing hard, and the same goes for his spouse. If I had a dime for every story I've heard bad mouthing ACG because of overgrading, I'd have a better collection than I do.

I took a 1901 ACG ms61pl for review to a high profile person at a top third party grading company. He found three problems: 1. It wasn't mint state, it was circulated. 2. It wasn't pl, as there were distinct areas of blandness. 3. It had been cleaned at one time. Ouch, ouch, and ouch. Thank God I didn't buy it.

If my own personal experience is any indication, the hobby is far better off without ACG.

Dennis88 · April 7, 2004 2:36AM

This is funny......

It's their own fault, when they grade coins that bad....... So others can make profit of it... Illegally..

Dennis

Goldfinger · April 7, 2004 2:38AM

I don't know all of the details of the charges against Accugrade, but they go beyond overgrading or grading counterfeits. As I understand it, Accugrade was accused also of cheating customers by purchasing their coins at a certain low grade, then turning around and assigning those coins higher grades for resale.

I think that's the most serious charge against ACG in a nutshell. I will now go wait for the process server to arrive.

-Jay

geb209 · April 7, 2004 2:38AM

Here's an excerpt from the ANA Board findings:

The industry generally grades coins on an industry accepted standard based upon the ANA's grading guide. Ms. Hager indicated, however, that ASA Accugrade does not grade on this standard but on a separate strike and luster standard established by Alan Hager. While the ANA understands Ms. Hager's position in this regard, her company, ASA Accugrade, does not clearly identify, particularly, for the consumer to whom ASA Accugrade coins are sold, that ASA Accugrade graded coins do not conform to the industry accepted standards.

I think stuff like that can go along way in this new matter.

ElectricEye · April 7, 2004 2:44AM

<< The Defendants named in this suit spread rumors, lies, innuendos, mis-truths, half truths and misrepresentations without thought or care for the actual truth. >>

They forgot semi-truths and quasi-truths.

<< Daniel Brodersen, Esquire >>

Couldn't get a real title I see...

UncleJoe · April 7, 2004 2:47AM

Says ACG, that's who. Ever heard of the Accugrade™ grading system? It's not the same ANA standard that everyone else is on. You might better read ACG's website.

You are making my point.

Who says it is overgraded and by what standards. There are various grading standards and to my knowledge there is no "official" grading standard that has to be followed or you go to jail. Yes, there are generally accepted market standards but even those are argued from time to time.

The issue isn't really whether you agree with or accept ACG's grading standards but whether or not they have the right to grade them as they see them without undue interference.

Joe.

Goldfinger · April 7, 2004 2:53AM

ACG and anyone else has the right to grade by whatever standard they choose, and the market will judge them accordingly. But if there's a false representation that a grading service adheres to ANA standards when it does not, that's a problem.

lava · April 7, 2004 3:01AM

Keep talking Uncle Joe, keep talking. Pretty soon you may start believing yourself. If you buy coins according to the standards you are advocating here, I suspect you will be filing Chapter 7 some day.

lava · April 7, 2004 3:03AM

It is no coincidence that on Mr. Hager's novel scale of grading coins, he just happened to choose a grading scale using numbers running up to 70. That's the whole case right there. What a joke.

Purple73 · April 7, 2004 3:10AM

Uhhhh folks. Just for the record. I didn't mean to start a argument or nothing. Um, I was simply asking if what I stated was what the lawsuit about.

PURPLE!

UncleJoe · April 7, 2004 3:13AM

If you buy coins according to the standards you are advocating here

Where did you read this?

I haven't advocated any standards one way or another. What I wrote was: The issue isn't really whether you agree with or accept ACG's grading standards but whether or not they have the right to grade them as they see them without undue interference.

Joe.

SarasotaFrank · April 7, 2004 3:16AM

in the famous words of Martin Sheen - if you live long enough, you get to see just about everything.

geb209 · April 7, 2004 3:32AM

On the contrary UncleJoe, the issue is whether the standards used by ASA Accugrade consistently result in overgraded coins by ANA standards and, if so, whether the consumer is adequately informed that what he/she is buying is not graded by ANA standards. Thats the issue. No one (other than yourself) ever said anything about whether they could grade on a non-ANA scale.

Conder101 · April 7, 2004 3:45AM

<< I know that if you get a slabbed ACG coin off of Ebay(from what I have read) the coin is almost always overgraded or graded improperly. To me, knowing the above, I would not send my coins to ACG because I would like to have accurate grades for the coins that I submit. >>

And this statement could be used by Hagar in support of his claims in the lawsuit. ACG has potentially suffereed a loss of business because written statements that defame ACG have caused people to choose not to send coins to ACG even though they have no actual first hand experience with the firm and all the evidence they have based their decision on is hearsay or anecdotal. His mistake though is in his maintaining that this was the result of an organized, plotted conspirecy in which the participants are engaging in in order to profit by ACG's loss. (At least that is what is maintained in the press release. The complaint is similar.) Proving such a conspirecy exists will not be easy. Especially since grading is just an opinion, and his problem seems to be that many people have a different opinion of his coins grades than he does.

UncleJoe · April 7, 2004 3:46AM

On the contrary UncleJoe, the issue is whether the standards used by ASA Accugrade consistently result in overgraded coins by ANA standards

That may be your issue but it is not an issue of the lawsuit.

No one (other than yourself) ever said anything about whether they could grade on a non-ANA scale.

Correct. That is my question: whether or not they have the right to grade them as they see them without undue interference.

Joe.

sadysta1 · April 7, 2004 3:47AM

I was rolling on the floor laughing reading pages 5 and 6 of their PDF complaint titled "statements" you should read it to!!!!!!!

kranky · April 7, 2004 3:48AM

Has there been any coverage of this in the numismatic press yet?

K6AZ · April 7, 2004 3:53AM

<< Has there been any coverage of this in the numismatic press yet? >>

Of course not. I didn't expect to see any.

Goldfinger · April 7, 2004 3:58AM

Why wouldn't there be coverage? Because it isn't something to be taken seriously?

-Jay

Accugrade's Press Release

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