Should I buy RAW or no?

GottaGetCoins · February 18, 2004 10:00AM

Buying RAW like that is for experinced collectors right? Or can one rely on B and M for grading?

In other words, I would like to buy RAW but I lack the experience. Can I trust any dealers?

Bear · February 18, 2004 10:01AM

Actually, its best to wear cloths before you buy coins.

MrEureka · February 18, 2004 10:03AM

I would like to buy RAW

Serious question: Why?

Wisconsin · February 18, 2004 10:05AM

I enjoy buying raw coins for the experiece of submitting the coins and learning from the experience. It is one of the most frustrating things you can do, but if you are up for a challenge, it will make you a better coin buyer. To begin with I would only buy raw coins at a price that you can consider the price of your education. You will make mistakes, but in the long run will learn a lot.

Jay

Russ · February 18, 2004 10:05AM

<< Serious question: Why? >>

Why not?

Russ, NCNE

GottaGetCoins · February 18, 2004 10:15AM

Reason: So I can put in albums.

Bear · February 18, 2004 10:19AM

Well let me count the ways, Forgeries, over grading, AT, future saleability and oh yes, there is the

small matter of being screwed, blued and tatooed.

poptopsRus · February 18, 2004 10:20AM

99% of the coins I buy are raw even for my personal collection.

haletj · February 18, 2004 10:23AM

Reason to buy raw coins...because there are nice raw coins out there and honest raw coin dealers (who grade even more consistently than the grading services). Why must every coin have to go through a $30 fee to be bought or sold... and encased in a bulky slab that gets scratched easily, and the grade may not even be right some (astoundingly large) percent of the time.

ccr · February 18, 2004 10:23AM

I`m sure there`s going to be a few points of veiw on this topic. Which is a good thing. I didn`t start back into buying RAW coins until I was back into the hobby for a couple of years. Even then, I read, asked questions, then read, then asked questions....... etc. So far, I haven`t got ripped off so I`m lucky in that respect. But most of what I have gotten isn`t earth shattering expensive either. There are a few dealers here on the boards that deal RAW coins. In no particular order, heres a couple of sites run by a couple of different forum members that I trust.

http://www.michaeldixonrarecoins.com/

http://www.wayneherndon.com/

Bear · February 18, 2004 10:23AM

If I Knew what the heck I was doing, I might even buy stock.

If you are confident you can avoid the pitfalls and grade in a

capable manner, then go for it. If you are spending sizable amounts of money

and you are a novice, dont do it. Better safe then sorry.

haletj · February 18, 2004 10:26AM

Since you mentioned albums I should mention they might not be a good idea for expensive coins. I use Whitman plastic holders and eagle coin pages (which do fit 20 coins). I keep saying this, but someday all my slabbed coins (1856 fe, 26-s Lincoln...etc) will be broken out and my whole collection will be stored this way.

fcloud · February 18, 2004 10:33AM

Raw coins are fine, but you should know the seller, or know the coins and what to look for. I would say for the most part you will be okay with raw when you buy from local dealers who you do continued business with. Circurlated e-bay coins are many time over graded. I have bought raw from a few sellers on e-bay and yahoo auctions. My first raw yahoo auction purchase was a 1942/41-D listed as "Fine" I thought the coin looked okay and laid out the cash. Sent the coin to PCGS and it came back VF35! Other coins I have purchased raw as 63 to 65 have come back body bagged for cleaning, or questionable color. Be very carefull and buy what you enjoy. I would say it is okay to buy raw, but expect to pay for that education. Every coin I get that does not make the grade, I study and study hard so I can use the it a learning tool.

Good luck!

ColonialCoinUnion · February 18, 2004 10:34AM

You should buy raw if you want to, you know what you are doing and you are satisifed that the coin meets your criteria regardless of what some future 3rd party grader might call it.

You should not buy raw if you will be disappointed when the coin does not slab to the specific grade you are hoping for.

GottaGetCoins · February 18, 2004 10:38AM

<< Since you mentioned albums I should mention they might not be a good idea for expensive coins. I use Whitman plastic holders and eagle coin pages (which do fit 20 coins). I keep saying this, but someday all my slabbed coins (1856 fe, 26-s Lincoln...etc) will be broken out and my whole collection will be stored this way. >>

Why are you going to do that?

Skipper53 · February 18, 2004 10:41AM

The first 50 coins I bought were raw and advertised as uncirculated.
They looked shiney so I assumed they were.
All turned out to be cleaned and a few were bodybagged for over-cleaning !
Until I've mastered the art of grading, I will buy only graded coins.

poptopsRus · February 18, 2004 10:46AM

There are many honest dealers out there. Today I bought a 1889 CC from another dealer raw & sight unseen. He said it will make the grade and I have to get it into a PCGS slab for my customer and I am 100% confident it will make the grade. While there ARE dealers out there that are only looking to make a buck there are many honest dealers out there as well.

mintluster · February 18, 2004 10:50AM

I rarely ever buy raw.
Always buy SLABBED or buy raw with the intention of slabbing.
That's my rule.
You will thank me later if you use this approach.

Russ · February 18, 2004 10:53AM

<< There are many honest dealers out there. >>

One of them just posted that statement. I paid some serious strong money to pry loose a couple raw coins from said maker of statement, and his assessment of them was right on target.

Russ, NCNE

JrGMan2004 · February 18, 2004 10:56AM

Every purchase I've made so far since getting back into coin collecting 2 months ago or so, have been Certified, partially b/c I was still just starting out and learning to grade and all that good stuff... and I also made a condition/guideline for my Merc Short Set to all be Certified by the top 3... I'm about to, hopefully, buy 2 raw coins at a show coming up in a week and a half, but I'll have help from an Experienced collector, and a trustworthy dealer, Brian Ostro (wingedliberty) and Bill Jones. Personally, I've gotten to the point where I can fairly decently grade MS Mercs... my only problem, is I'm shaky on spotting cleaned coins... I just don't know what to look for, b/c I've only had 1 cleaned coin to look at... so, you can really get burned, but there are some great dealers out there, and on this forum, that I would trust to buy Raw coins from, like the nice guys mentioned above...

MacCrimmon · February 18, 2004 10:57AM

I bought all these RAW! I like 'em RAW.

1 21303427 1908 B 1 Rap SWISS SP66RD
2 21303428 1914 B 2 Rap SWISS MS66RD
3 21303429 1932 B 2 Rap SWISS MS66RD
4 21303430 1934 B 2 Rap SWISS SP66RD
5 21303431 1938 B 2 Rap SWISS SP66RD
6 21303432 1894 B 5 Rap SWISS MS67
7 21303433 1902 B 5 Rap SWISS MS66
8 21303434 1922 B 5 Rap SWISS MS66
9 21303435 1928 B 5 Rap SWISS SP67
10 21303436 1946 B 5 Rap SWISS SP67
11 21303437 1953 B 5 Rap SWISS SP68
12 21303438 1871 B 10 Rap SWISS MS65
13 21303439 1909 B 10 Rap SWISS SP68
14 21303440 1938 B 10 Rap SWISS SP67
15 21303441 1936 B 20 Rap SWISS SP67
16 21303442 1953 B 20 Rap SWISS SP67
17 21303443 1945 B 1/2 Fr SWISS SP67
18 21303444 1903 B 1 Fr SWISS MS66

To learn to grade, go view thousands of coins at major auctions, find dealers willing to explain "why" something is or isn't good for the grade. Reward them with your money by buying nice coins from them. Pick their brains, and finally, if you are going to buy RAW before you can hit the 'slab grade' 80% of the time or more, expect to lose your money.

Remember, it takes time to learn grading......lots of time. Have fun and enjoy!

Wondo · February 18, 2004 11:00AM

Unless you have brass kahunas, buy circulated inexpensive coins raw - you will get the best value for your $$$. Buy unc, expensive coins graded unless you are more knowledgable than the dealers and scam artists.

Dealers and scam artists are NOT one in the same!!!! But you better be able to grade as well as a dealer to buy raw IMHO.

kyleknap · February 18, 2004 1:12PM

Simple solution. A hammer.

There's nothing wrong with busting coins out of slabs.

Kyle

KUCH · February 18, 2004 1:27PM

IMHO... I would buy slabbed coins first, as your knowledge and experience grows...go raw. Especially if your purchase is high priced. There are fake coins, cleaned coins, and who knows what else out there. Good luck.

MrEureka · February 18, 2004 1:44PM

Reason: So I can put in albums.

Excellent!

Now on to your question: "Can I trust any dealers?"

Answer: Yes, but I think you're talking about auctioneers, right? In that case, you CANNOT trust auction descriptions when it comes to the grade. Doesn't have anything to do with integrity or competence. There are just too many coins in the sales and you WILL end up with the worst ones if you don't look in person.

If I wasn't confident with my grading skills and I wanted to collect raw coins and put them in albums, I'd collect a very difficult series in perfect and original circulated grades. (IMHO, wear is not an imperfection.) I'd also get lots of feedback on my purchases, whenever and wherever possible.

haletj · February 18, 2004 3:16PM

<< <<...someday all my slabbed coins (1856 fe, 26-s Lincoln...etc) will be broken out and my whole collection will be stored this way. >>

Why are you going to do that? >>

Because the set of small cents is 300+ coins. How could I ever look at my set when I have say 60 in pcgs slabs, 30 in ngc slabs, a handful of anacs/icg coins, a bunch of raw ones, all mixed up in no particular order. Why the heck would I pay $12 or $30 per coin to have every coin put into a pcgs slab, and then store them in 15+ boxes! The Whitman holders will protect the coins just as well as slabs (one dealer said it'll protect better than some slabs).

Think of how cool this will be... eagle holder pages fit 20 Whitman holders, 5 rows of 4. I open a binder, the top row is the 4 flying eagle cents starting with the very first small cent 1856! Then on to the Indian Cents... I include the two 1886 varieties but not the 69/69 nor 1860,1873 varieties, so the Indian Cent set is 56 coins long, finsihing up the first three pages... all flashy well matched near gem reds! The top of the fourth page starts with the 4 1909 Lincoln Cents and continues on, again all well matched near gem reds...by the seventh page we're into the 30's and into ms66 superb gems. The wheat set is 140 coins, perfect for 7 pages, and the eleventh page (and probably a new binder) starts right off with 1959 and right into flawless perfectly matching zinc cents! A well matched set will be the key to how cool it'll be!

Boom · February 18, 2004 3:20PM

Mr. Eureka said the very same thing I am going to....only if you are a) confident in your grading skills and are set up with proper lighting and multiple magnification(5X-16 power loupe) b) If you are familiar with the seller and he offers a return privilege and c) If you are equally as competent at detecting altered and counterfeit coins-otherwise you are in for some severe disappointment and huge sums of money. Your epiphany will come the day you submit what you believed to be a CH BU coin and it comes back AU 58 or "cleaned" in a body bag! There is little that can top that terrible feeling you get when you realize you've been had....made to pay top dollar for considerably less than what you thought you had.

dorkkarl · February 18, 2004 10:45PM

<< Should I buy RAW or no? >>

NO! you should buy COINS.

whatever kind of holder it's in doesn't matter to me. sometimes, it's in a 2x2 flip, sometimes a kraft envelope, sometimes it's stuck in a gargantuan chunk of plastic, either way, the somehow always end up in my collection in my own holder.

K S

Conder101 · February 19, 2004 12:30AM

<< Well let me count the ways, Forgeries, over grading, AT, future saleability and oh yes, there is the small matter of being screwed, blued and tatooed. >>

And with the possible exception of the forgeries, all of those are possible with slabs as well. And as far as forgeries when buying raw, that tends to be a problem with gold, some high priced commems, and some well known commonly faked keys. For the majority of coins I don't feel that is really to much of a problem. Cleaning and AT are a much bigger problem than forgeries for most coins.

MrEureka · February 19, 2004 12:38AM

Mr. Eureka said the very same thing I am going to....only if you are a) confident in your grading skills and are set up with proper lighting and multiple magnification(5X-16 power loupe) b) If you are familiar with the seller and he offers a return privilege and c) If you are equally as competent at detecting altered and counterfeit coins-otherwise you are in for some severe disappointment and huge sums of money. Your epiphany will come the day you submit what you believed to be a CH BU coin and it comes back AU 58 or "cleaned" in a body bag! There is little that can top that terrible feeling you get when you realize you've been had....made to pay top dollar for considerably less than what you thought you had.

Boom - I said nothing of the sort. I recommended collecting something that doesn't require a very experienced eye.

dorkkarl · February 19, 2004 12:41AM

you could build a decent reference collection of fake gold coins - FROM SLABS right now. there are plenty of c/f's, especially gold, in pcgs, ngc & anacs plastic.

luckily, your backed by the guarantee ... as long as they're still in business.

K S

MrEureka · February 19, 2004 12:42AM

there are plenty of c/f's, especially gold, in pcgs, ngc & anacs plastic.

Dorkkarl - Really? How many have you seen?

Jaywalker · February 19, 2004 2:26AM

I would echo what a couple of other people have said--get your education in grading raw coins by buying cheaper circulated coins, and assembling cheaper sets.

I would set a cutoff of, say, $100. Anything above that price, I would only buy certified. (At least until I feel like I'm an expert at identifying all the possible problems that people have mentioned--something that could take many years).

I have really enjoyed putting together circulated sets of Washies, Roosies, Jeffs, Frankies, etc. I have accidentally bought some cleaned or damaged coins, but it's not quite as big a problem as buying a $500 cleaned or overgraded coin.

dorkkarl · February 19, 2004 3:22AM

<< there are plenty of c/f's, especially gold, in pcgs, ngc & anacs plastic. Dorkkarl - Really? How many have you seen? >>

example: five slabbed (ngc, pcgs) gold coins AT ONE SINGLE MAJOR SHOW. of course, that was out of, for the sake of numbers let's just say, 10,000 coins on the bourse floor. so odds are greatly in your favor that a slabed gold coin is real.

yes, i'm projecting my claim based on ONE show, but it was a MAJOR show (central state, indy).

K S

MrEureka · February 19, 2004 5:47AM

five slabbed (ngc, pcgs) gold coins AT ONE SINGLE MAJOR SHOW. of course, that was out of, for the sake of numbers let's just say, 10,000 coins on the bourse floor

I believe you. How about some details? What types of coins? Which grading services? How many sellers? Etc.

jeffnpcb · February 19, 2004 5:59AM

GottaGetCoins, check out prior threads from MadMarty and you will see that buying plastic will be expensive. He has found, posted them raw and later showed us grading results. Now, if you have a bottomless bucket-o-money, just buy those fancy, dancy slabs and crack them out!

dorkkarl · February 19, 2004 6:00AM

i won't mention names, but the details i remember off-hand (don't have my notes handy),
2 coins in pcgs holders, 2 coins in ngc holders, 1 coin i forget which. all 5 coins were die-transfer struck counterfeits, evidently on correct-weight planchets (obviously can't weigh them in the slab).

i didn't identify the coins myself, my buddy is an EXPERT though. how could he be so sure they were fakes? because he owns THE EXACT SAME COINS, by that i mean, exactly the same die-defects, dings, etc, that would exist on all the fakes. in fact, he told me that 3 of the 4 coins were off the same fake dies.

K S

ealandg · February 19, 2004 6:28AM

I only buy raw coins from a few very reputable dealers and only when I am very familiar with the series. I buy them raw because the "pre-slabbed" coins are not as negotiable in terms of price. In my experience, dealers tend to be more committed to a price based on what the slab says. If the coin is raw and a "slider", there is more room to negotiate.

Should I buy RAW or no?

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