If PCGS guarantees a coins grade how can it drop 2 points as a result of a simple spot review?

Boom · February 3, 2004 1:11PM

just how is it the coin is extracted from it's slab, God only knows what they did to it but now it's a 63! There is definitely something wrong with this picture. Why did they even mess with it if a PCGS certified coin can not be downgraded... Man, I am totally confused here! Just what were they thinking? What did they do. At one point it had to have been a 65 and all there was- was a runny substance up against the slab...that's all. Something is definitely amiss here and I can't quite put my finger on it! Any thoughts?

airplanenut · February 3, 2004 1:19PM

They'll compensate you/send you a different 65

Boom · February 3, 2004 1:34PM

No Jeremy- DH had Araceli call me and offerd to let me keep the coin as a 63 and pay me a couple hundred dollars or they would keep the coin and just give me about $250.00. This is not only incredible I am stupified! Is this yet another meaningless guarantee? Problem-Free Coins
PCGS has a policy prohibiting the encapsulation of coins with problems such as: artificial toning, excessive cleaning, environmental damage, PVC damage, major scratches, or planchet flaws. (Note: PCGS does not refund grading fees on coins which must be rejected, since the coin must be examined to determine its status.)

Now, if this is so-then the problem happened inside the holder and you would think that the right thing to do is what you suggested

itsnotjustme · February 3, 2004 1:41PM

<< just how is it the coin is extracted from it's slab, God only knows what they did to it but now it's a 63! There is definitely something wrong with this picture. Why did they even mess with it if a PCGS certified coin can not be downgraded... Man, I am totally confused here! Just what were they thinking? What did they do. At one point it had to have been a 65 and all there was- was a runny substance up against the slab...that's all. Something is definitely amiss here and I can't quite put my finger on it! Any thoughts? >>

I'm puzzled.
- Did you send the coin in for review?
- What grade holder was it in when you sent it in?
- Did you expect a downgrade?
- What was the value in the original grade?
- What is the value in MS63?
- What runny substance was up against the slab?
- Did it penetrate the slab?

itsnotjustme · February 3, 2004 1:42PM

I guess I should have quoted the title since it changed since I read it!

Boom · February 3, 2004 1:44PM

The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Guarantee Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection. What about this? I'm so upset I can hardly express myself!

dbldie55 · February 3, 2004 1:46PM

Sounds like the way the grade guarantee works. What are we missing?

Boom · February 3, 2004 1:48PM

That's indicative of how confused I am Brian. I have to get a hold of Oreville. He may still have a scan of the coin. The coin was shinier than normal-almost prooflike. This white runnys"substance" was on the coin and up against the slab-almost as if it had been dipped when graded and put in the slab still wet! It went in for a simple spot review as a PCGS 65 1935-S and now it's a PCGS 63?!!

itsnotjustme · February 3, 2004 1:50PM

I'm with Doubledie--assuming the coin was worth $250 as a 65, you sent it for review because ??, it downgraded, they are offering you two choices of compensation, where is the problem?

MrEureka · February 3, 2004 1:51PM

I'm so upset I can hardly express myself

Boom - Very true. How about taking a deep breath and start from the beginning for those of us who are not psychics.

itsnotjustme · February 3, 2004 1:53PM

35-S, MS65 GS B/A 280/310. I don't know if they routinely trade above this level. So $250 sounds a little low. Do you see damage to the coin from removal? Could a liquid have entered the slab after grading? Could it have been stored in humid conditions that led to humidity in the slab? Does the coin look like a 65 now?

Newmismatist · February 3, 2004 2:04PM

<< 35-S, MS65 GS B/A 280/310. >>

I'm sorry, I'm confused. What does "GS B/A 280/310" stand for? Is the GS "golden state" or "golden shower"? Is B/A Bad A$$ and while I know that 280/310 is a mathematical fraction = to .90322580 . . . , I can't quite get the context here.

BTW what KIND of 1935-S coin are we talking about? penny, nickel dime quarter, half or dollar?

foodude · February 3, 2004 2:05PM

GS B/A 280/310

GS = Grey Sheet

B = Bid

A = Ask

Boom · February 3, 2004 2:07PM

OK everyone let me TRY to slow down and compose myself. I've been trying for hours! It's a $350 ish coin, that I bought for $308.75. I DO NOT have the coin back yet but, NO- there was nothing wrong with the slab-it was not cracked nor was it stored in a humid place. It was stored the short while I had it with the rest of the set. The coin was that way when I got it and it bugged me and Oreville noticed it. It was too shiny-much unlike a normal quarter. With this 1) did PCGS grade an altered/ dipped coin? 2) Did THEY, perhaps clean the coin and put it in the slab still wet and as time passed the problem manifest itself. A couple of factors come into play here.

Newmismatist · February 3, 2004 2:08PM

Well, that's a start, now if we only knew what kind of coin we're talking about, some of this might make sense.

Edited to add: Ah-ha! its a quarter! downgraded from MS 65 to MS63 when Boom asked PCGS to remove the white slim on the coin, but instead of removing the gook, at no charge it was down-graded!

Now I know what this is all about - another Jade-coin thread, but w/o the drama

Boom · February 3, 2004 2:09PM

A 1935-S Washington Quarter-paid $308.75 PCGS certification # 6591372

stman · February 3, 2004 2:14PM

Newmismatist...shame on you for asking what kind of coin it is. You should know they don't call them coins no more. Well I guess they do sorta.... usually it's a PCGS or NGC coin how it's referred to these days. No year or denomination.

Newmismatist · February 3, 2004 2:19PM

Email PCGS with an explanation of your cost & my guess is they'll reimburse you your cost w/o any hassel - If they can buy back an over-graded 1963 PR70Dcam penny for about $35K, they probable won't argue too much over a $300 coin that they just down-graded. They seem to have a PR problem with explaining what they do and why - but then you don't have the coin back yet with the PCGS check and the 2 page letter of explanation, do you ?

Boom · February 3, 2004 2:20PM

"....ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder"

WHAT DID THEY DO THAT MADE IT DROP TWO GRADES?

Newmismatist · February 3, 2004 2:21PM

<< Newmismatist...shame on you for asking what kind of coin it is. You should know they don't call them coins no more. Well I guess they do sorta.... usually it's a PCGS or NGC coin how it's referred to these days. No year or denomination.

>>

but is it round?

Dog97 · February 3, 2004 2:31PM

<<<The coin was that way when I got it and it bugged me>>>
You bought a problem coin cheap. Why in the L did you do that?
Did you think you could buy junk and PCGS replace it with PQ material under the grade Guarantee?
Strang that they want to keep the coin and just give you $250, because they list it on their site @ $375.
That's not much of a guarantee if you ask me, like oh we guarantee it so much we'll give you SOME $$ back but you're still taking a hit out of your wallet for trusting our product.

Boom · February 3, 2004 2:34PM

Dog, when I bought it on-line none of these problems were visible. It bugged me once I laid eyes on it in person! And to answer the other part of your question, NO...I didn't even know what a spot review was until someone brought it to my attention. I was just gonna return it but it was said that it was a beautiful coin with a minor problrm that PCGS could correct. I even emailed attatcments to DH.The front office told me to send it in! I don't like this partial guarantee. Suppose I would buy a $6500 coin from DHRC and the same thing happened. If I sent it in under thhe same circumsatnces -what- oh, here ya go here's $5000 and we keep the coin! Oh uh-uh ! And another thing -since when is a PCGS 65 coin a piece of junk?

Bear · February 3, 2004 2:35PM

DOD? You turned the big Dog into the Department of Defense?

Boom · February 3, 2004 2:41PM

Thanks Bear-typing isn't exactly my strong suit.

relayer · February 3, 2004 2:42PM

<< Dod, when I bought it on-line none of these problems were visible. It bugged me once I laid eyes on it in person! >>

I don't really have a comment on this incoherent rambling, but I just thought it was funny he called him Dod

Boom · February 3, 2004 2:58PM

How can PCGS guarantee a grade, scanned images were sent to the office's attention-it was suggested I do a spot review and somewhere along the line this one time PCGS 65 1935-S Quarter now becomes PCGS 63? When did and how did it change grades? NOWHERE ON MY SUBMISSION FORM DOES IT SAY RE-GRADE! Directly under the sumission number I wrote exactly what I was told to write....SPOT REVIEW N/C with a declared value of $350.00

berylcoin · February 3, 2004 3:20PM

Let's get back to basics. PCGS grades and slabs coins for a fee. Sometimes they are wrong, or the coin changes after holdering. To protect consumers in these instances (and increase the value of PCGS's service) PCGS has a "grading guarantee". It DOES NOT GUARANTEE THEY WILL NOT CHANGE THE GRADE. It does, however, guarantee that after correcting their mistake (i.e. dropping the grade of your quarter by two points) you will be in some way compensated for the difference in value between the initial incorrect grade and the proper grade and given the coin, or you will be paid the supposed fair market value of the coin in its initial incorrectly graded holder.

Which part of this scenario specifically do you take issue with, or feel was not carried out to your satisfaction?

BC

relayer · February 3, 2004 3:26PM

Seems pretty simple to me on this time-line

A) Submiter slabs a 1935-S 25c MS65

Time passes
C) Boom buys it for $308
D) Boom stores it with other quarters
E) Boom sees it has runny substance on it and is too shiney
F) Boom sends it in to PCGS for what he calls a "simple spot review"
G) PCGS looks at the coin today and grades it MS63 (due to events that occured between points A and F)
H) PCGS offers Boom $200 under their grade guarantee policy
I) Boom posts

Newmismatist · February 3, 2004 3:44PM

<< Seems pretty simple to me on this time-line

A) Submiter slabs a 1935-S 25c MS65

Time passes
C) Boom buys it for $308
D) Boom stores it with other quarters
E) Boom sees it has runny substance on it and is too shiney
F) Boom sends it in to PCGS for what he calls a "simple spot review"
G) PCGS looks at the coin today and grades it MS63 (due to events that occured between points A and F)
H) PCGS offers Boom $200 under their grade guarantee policy
I) Boom posts >>

Relayer - I think the part you forgot is that PCGS downgraded Booms coin w/o any explanation and then "offered" him $200 as the price differential, which he seems to think is way less than it should be. Perhaps you shopuld add:

H) Boom is surprised that PCGS downgrades his coin because he only asked for "spot removal" and is upset that his formally MS65 is now an MS63 with no request by him to "downgrade" the coin.
I) PCGS offers Boom $200 under their grade guarantee policy
J) Boom is justifiably upset because 1) he's going to loose money on his coin 2) he didn't requsted a money loosing down-grade, he expected "spot removal" on his MS65 coin.
K) Boom posts

Does anyone know what an MS63 1935-S quarter is worth?

clackamas · February 3, 2004 3:56PM

Honestly I am confused. Show PCGS your invoice for what you paid and they will reimburse you. I coincidentally had a 35-S Lincoln cent drop 2 grades From 66RD to 64RD upon review. They offed me $150 for the coin but I paid $300+ for it (sight unseen) I said no, I would like $300 or the coin back with the original grade, oh yea I want all the 66RD 35-S's you can get for $150.00. PCGS made it right and reimbured me for the coin, well not quite yet but it should be completed soon.

relayer · February 3, 2004 4:51PM

What you called a "spot removal" Boom calls a "spot review".

PCGS does not conserve coins or remove spots, but they do provide compensation for undergraded coins under their grade guarantee.

The period between an offer and an acceptance is known as negotiation.

relayer · February 3, 2004 5:02PM

BTW: The PCGS Price guide lists MS63 @ $95 and MS65 @ $375, a difference of $280 (in PCGS Price Guide Dollars).

Boom · February 3, 2004 5:07PM

Newmismatist nailed it except I just bought the coin 1-2-04 and the process called "spot review", before this was totally unknown to me. When I told the dealer about the problem he said I could return it to him and he would submit it for spot review( a free service because of PCGS' commitment to excellence) or I could just contact them and they would do it for me. I sent emails to David Hall with attatchments who, in turn, referred me to Araceli Flores and or Sandy Locker, who in fact, did verify that this is true and gave me very specific instructions as to what to do-right down to exactly where to write the words "Spot review". So I'm to believe that our World Class graders missed this coin's grade, from the get-go, in MINT STATE by TWO WHOLE POINTS!? Well isn't that lovely? Man even I can grade that well..In that case my whole set is- ALL OUR COINS ARE- off by a four point swing!. If PCGS graders are as incompetent as you suggest we are all being taken for a ride! So yet another guarantee that means nothing. In that case the whole grading/certification scenario is on great big farce and they laugh all the way to the bank -as some members would say , for them to look at our coins for 6 seconds with no magnification! GIMME A BREAK! I asked for a simple "spot review" and re-holdering-a free service I am told, because of PCGS' Guarantee. I've heard it all now...."the coin changes grades in the slab!" Oh, Brother!

MrEureka · February 3, 2004 6:54PM

Boom -

"Bid" for a 35-S quarter in MS 63 is $84. In 65, they're at $220. The differential is $136. Seems to me that PCGS' two offers to you were reasonable. Even if you think you're entitled to a few extra bucks, your grievance is trivial. You are completely wasting your time, PCGS' time, and ours. Let it go.

PS - Now you know why I don't work in PCGS' customer relations office.

MrEureka · February 3, 2004 7:03PM

So I'm to believe that our World Class graders missed this coin's grade, from the get-go, in MINT STATE by TWO WHOLE POINTS!?

PCGS has a grading guaranty BECAUSE they know and acknowledge that they can make mistakes, coins CAN "turn" in the holder, etc. Why does it shock you that PCGS decided that YOUR coin - which you knew had a problem - needed to be downgraded?

Boom · February 3, 2004 7:40PM

I just reviewed every sent email and email received from all involved with this coin. I did exactly as instructed. Do you think I would waste me time and money to purposely purchase a $325 problem coin"? If you want to know every shred of information from all parties I'll be glad to forward all of it to you. The bottom line is I take instruction well and did exactly as I was told concerning this spot review. NOWHERE on my submission form does it say re-grade. They would have been better off leaving it alone and returning it to me with a letter that I could have presented the dealer with...the same dealer who suggestd I contact PCGS for this service-then I would have returned it and received either a complete refund or a replacement! Please refrain from passing judgement until or unless you have all the facts. I simply wanted what I saw in a picture-a nice White PCGS 65 1935-S Quarter for my Registry Set...that's IT. I did not ask nor give anyone permission to regrade the coin. A problem transpired in the slab and that's that. I wanted to return it but was told PCGS could correct the problem-not re-grade/ downgrade my coin.

Placid · February 3, 2004 8:27PM

E-mail sucks for communication. It's best to call on the phone and try to talk to the same person each time when you have a problem.

If someone at pcgs told you they could fix the problem without ever seeing the coin in person I think they should not have said that in my opinion.

As far as I know if you send a coin to pcgs just for reholdering $5 no grader even looks at the coin.

Was that the only coin you sent in on that invoice?

itsnotjustme · February 3, 2004 9:00PM

<< In that case my whole set is- ALL OUR COINS ARE- off by a four point swing! >>

Not at all. You are taking a near worst case exception, and applying it to all our coins. Two points is very rare. One point though--with single point grading scale from 60 to 70, what percent of coins are very close to the line where even expert graders may place it above the line one day, below the line the next? As shrewd collectors, we aim to buy coins that fell just below the line, and if possible get them across the line into the higher grade holder. Given how many people are not successful at getting upgrades, I'd think the first grade PCGS assigns would likely hold up 90%+ of the time on a resubmission.

<< I wanted to return it but was told PCGS could correct the problem-not re-grade/ downgrade my coin. >>

You may have taken the wrong person's advice. The sellers interest was in selling the coin and having $308 in pocket with minimal work. The seller transferred the "problem" (in quotes as I have not seen the coin) to you, and you accepted it. If you were unhappy with the coin you should have returned it.

<< I did not ask nor give anyone permission to regrade the coin. >>

What did you expect PCGS to do, decrease the unnatural brightness while keeping it white and put it back into a 65 holder?

darktone · February 3, 2004 9:06PM

<< PCGS does not conserve coins or remove spots >>

Yes, PCGS does remove spots on coins that turn in the holder.

Boom, I think the PCGS grade guarranty is working just as they say it does but you might want to make a counter offer so you are whole on this deal. mike

jamesfsm · February 3, 2004 9:18PM

It sounds like offer Number One was a good one.

You keep the formerly $300 coin for $100 and get $200 in cash from PCGS. It must be the nicest MS63 on the Registry Express.

Why was that a bad deal?

ibzman350 · February 3, 2004 11:21PM

"the problem happened inside the holder"

Is this possible?? I have a nicely toned coin in an old slab, calling this a rattler is an understatement. After receiving the coin I examined it for 30 minutes, that is when I noticed the coin was rotating in the slab. Is it possible for the coin to be damaged while rotating in the slab ?? I would like to submitte the coin to be placed in a new slab ( I have some free submissions). Will it come back a 64 ?? Some input please

Herb

nwcs · February 3, 2004 11:29PM

Coin rotation is common in old rattlers and should not damage the coin.

XpipedreamR · February 3, 2004 11:32PM

I'm not clear on what exactly you sent the coin to PCGS for?

What were they supposed to do with it?

What is a Spot Review?

Steve · February 4, 2004 12:17AM

Boom, please tell me it is NOT all about the money. I don't know you but I spent ten minutes reading this entire thread. PCGS has every right and obligation to its customers to downgrade any coin it believes has deteriorated in its holder. It compensates the owner. I truely wonder what your REAL purpose is in posting this. PCGS is not a conservation service. They cannot guarantee you over the phone that they can make a problem coin a non problem coin. You should be able to understand that yourself. They offer you the opportunity to keep the coin if this particular coin is so important to you. They offer you the opportunity to get reimbursed for the coin if you don't want it. Take your choice, but please don't "hit" on PCGS for this one. They are right and you are wrong. JMHO. Steve

spadesjedi · February 4, 2004 12:45AM

Man,

trying to read Boom's posts is like trying to decipher the dead sea scrolls

oreville · February 4, 2004 12:56AM

I don't think boom is complaining about the money at all. I think he is still to stunned at what happened and is trying to explain his reactions here. I am also quite frankly, surprised as well.

He asked me to look at the coin from a photgraph of the coin he sent me. I suggested that the coin looked like it had some streakiness to it due most likely to a previous dipping that was not properly rinsed. Mere speculation on my part. Grade was not even discussed. I mentioned to boom for him to contact PCGS if they would reholder the coin (and also ask them to rinse the coin again to remove the residue from the coin if that were possible, if another redipping was needed, then that would have to be PCGS's call). I do not know what happened after my pm's with boom but I can imagine that he followed through on my suggestions.

Something must have gone wrong here. I am sure that boom will be ultimately happy with the financial aspect of what happened here. But if PCGS was not asked for a grade review and there was no public outcry on this inexpensive coin, does a reholdering now mean the coin is now subject to an automatic grade review? Is this a part of the PCGS get tough policy? This is what I think boom is asking us!

Boom and the rest of us are not getting all the facts here. Something is being lost in the communication between PCGS and boom. HRH can probably straighten this out so that we understand this better.

kranky · February 4, 2004 1:11AM

<< I'm not clear on what exactly you sent the coin to PCGS for?

What were they supposed to do with it?

What is a Spot Review? >>

That is going to be the main issue, in my opinion.

zenny · February 4, 2004 1:12AM

Boom

Hopefully now you have a nice night's rest under your belt.

The one question i'm really curious about is "how does the coin look now?"

All we've read about is numbers on slabs and prices for this and that.

Other possible pertinent questions include:

Is the slime/spot removed?

Is this now the nicest 63 on the planet?

If you were to send it in fresh would it come back as a 64 or 5?

What is your opinion as to the correctness of the grade;

a) at the time you purchased;

b) at the time you sent it back to pcgs;

c) at the time it was returned to you in the 3 holder?

I agree with most that the "grade guarantee" seems to be working just fine up to this point in time, (with the possible exception that pcgs did not in any way communicate the downgrade to you and that you've had to initiate the negotiation for your proper compensation.)

Would you be happy if they "conserved" the coin, DID NOT ACTUALLY LOOK AT IT AGAIN, then put it back in the holder it came in, even if the grade was improper?

I know you mentioned the word registry somewhere, and as i've never really understood collecting from that angle, perhaps we think differently, but i certainly wouldn't want a 3 in a 5 holder just because it made me a higher number in a cyberspace contest.

Hopefully you will speak to someone from pcgs who can make you whole and get you either the proper amount for your coin, a different coin of the proper grade or the difference in value between a 3 and 5.

Sounds to me like they are taking the guarantee pretty seriously.

Okay Dorkkarl, let em have it....

z

Gilbert · February 4, 2004 1:35AM

hey Boom,

I am not aware that PCGS has a "spot review" program per se. There is I believe a grade and/or guarantee review. If YOU submit a coin and don't agree with the grade you challenge it by resubmitting as a "grade" review. If you make a purchase and don't agree with the assigned grade (as in overgraded) you submit under the "guarantee" review. (FYI: if undergraded that would be an upgrade and at no loss to you)

Either way the PCGS stated goal is to properly assign the grade at no loss to you.

After reviewing the coin PCGS determined that could not reslab the coin as a 65, and offered to return it "at its current grade" and pay you the difference OR keep the coin and pay you the going market rate (THAT IS THEIR POLICY). They will argue they aren't liable if you overpaid (I think that is understandable) and they aren't going to slab a 63 coin as a 65 just because they screwed up encapsulating it as a 65 with "sludge" on it in the past.

I'm with you that it sucks that it had whatever the problem was but it looks like you and PCGS are doing what's right. They removed the problem and were left with what PRESENTLY only warrants a 63 - what would you have them do?

On another note, you need to bone up on what submission policy really is. (I only say this because it's apparent you have expectations other that what's stated in the PCGS submission policy).

Whitewashqtr · February 4, 2004 2:19AM

This is what I know about the guarantee because I went through it with a coin that was grade MS66, didnt look right and then came back "environmentally damaged"

If you let PCGS keep the coin, they will reimburse you for the fair market value of the coin. If you overpaid, touch noogies. Doesnt sound like you overpaid, but with $250 in your pocket AND the coin, sounds fair to me.

You are being made whole (or close to it) so chalk it up to experience and MOVE ON!!

WWQ

Conder101 · February 4, 2004 3:23AM

<< I did not ask nor give anyone permission to regrade the coin >>

Boom,

Actually you did by requesting the review. As part of the review they regrade the coin to make sure it is accurate. If it is not then they have to change it. Since they are guaranteeing the grade they will not knowingly return to the marketplace a coin with a grade they do not agree with. Since the grade has to be changed downward the submitter is due compensation under the grading guarantee. He can either receive the coin back at the new grade plus financial compensation equal to the decrease in value between the old and new grades, OR he can let PCGS keep the coin and be compensated for the full value.

This is the position you are in BECAUSE you requested the review. (Of course if you hadn't, PCGS would be under no obligation to you at all.) All that remains now is to negotiate a satisfactory compensation. If you can prove what you paid for the coin they will probably be willing to reimbuse you completely and you will lose nothing.

<< So I'm to believe that our World Class graders missed this coin's grade, from the get-go, in MINT STATE by TWO WHOLE POINTS!? Well isn't that lovely? Man even I can grade that well. >>

Yes but do you guarantee that if you are later shown a coin you used to own and change your mind about the grade you will compensate them for it? PCGS does.

If PCGS guarantees a coins grade how can it drop 2 points as a result of a simple spot review?

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