72-D Ike pegged leg revisited (pics)

DHeath · December 18, 2003 12:16PM

After reading a thread the other night regarding this new potential variety, I dug around in my roll coins and located a few good examples of die progression that seem to support the premise that the pegged leg "R" in "Lberty" is the result of die polishing, and may simply represent a late die state coin (much like the 22-D Lincoln or the 82 No FG Kennedy). I apologize in advance for the large pictures.

Coin #1 is a normal serif R, with the lower left leg of the R in a bell shape.

Coin #2 is a pegged leg coin, with the bell missing.

The first pic is of coin one (normal R)

This coin shows the initial effect of die polishing on the R.

This pic shows a third coin with obvious die polish abrasion of the R. Notice the increased distance of the R from the portrait.

This pegged leg R is from the coin in the second large photo. Notice the increased distance of the R from the bust.

Any thoughts?

jcping · December 18, 2003 12:20PM

Mmmm..... may be we need to define the Peg Leg first. Should Peg Leg be the die without polishing?
Could filled die strike be considered as Peg Leg?

After viewing your pictures, I am doubt that the coin is a Peg Leg as we defined for 71-S Peg Leg.

Dollars · December 18, 2003 12:21PM

Many thanks DHeath. I am learning as much as I can about Ikes. The pics you posted are now on my hard drive to teach me.

Many Thanks, 1000 Thanks. I learn soo much here everytime I log on.

DHeath · December 18, 2003 12:28PM

Jcping,

That's entirely possible. In the 4th enlargement, that coin shows no evidence of the heavy die polish lines that are apparent in what I suspect are the transitional coins. I'm wondering if the serif just happens to be the easiest place to notice the effect of sucessive die polishing efforts since it is the closest element of the design to the portrait. I'm also wondering if the 72-D exists in the same form as the 71-S.

supercoin · December 18, 2003 1:37PM

Nice photos! I agree this doesn't look like the same as the 71-S peg-legs (proof or unc). In those cases the lower element is just plain missing, which requires that a hub (where the elements are raised just like the coin) would have to be modfied, not a die. On a die the R would be incuse and you can't polish away an incuse element.

The prevailing theory for the 71-S peg-leg proofs is that a master hub (where the R is raised just like on the coin) had the lower leg of the R polished away, and thereby created multiple master dies/working hubs/working dies. Which is why it's fairly common.

For the 71-S uncs, there is not as clear of explanation. The variety has only been found struck with two different working dies. Even if it was just a working hub modified (instead of the master hub) you'd expect many more working dies. The best explanation seems to be that they were a couple of special test dies made from a working hub or hubs, to test out the new hardened steel that was put in use later in 1972.

I'd be very curious to see photos from the other 72-D "peg leg" owners. Maybe you could send the coins to Don to get their photo taken.

DHeath · December 18, 2003 2:20PM

Thanks for the explaination (and recommendation

). It appears to me that the serif is one of the deepest elements of the design, hence on the die it would be one of the highest points. If the die were polished to the extent that the area surrounding the serif were removed, the bell would simply disappear. On the 71-S MS coin, does the leg end abruptly or does it become shallow and fade? I haven't been able to examine one in hand yet.

FrattLaw · December 18, 2003 2:32PM

I have to take a pic of mine and post it. But, there are 72-Ds that have the look of die polishing causing the peg-leg. Then there are ones that match the peg-legs from 71-S. The pics that Don posted appear to be caused by die polishing. There's a new Eisenhower book coming out soon that will explain this variety in greater detail. I am anxious as well to see how this variety might have ended up on a Denver mint coin. I speculate that the dies from SF might have been sent to Denver.

I just don't know.

Michael

supercoin · December 18, 2003 3:09PM

Ok Don, I'm getting confused.

You mean the serif is one of the least-raised areas on the coin? I suppose parts of it are, though it is just as raised as the main portion of the letter where it connects to the main portion of the letter.

I think what you are showing on the 72-D is die polishing. The field just between the lower leg of the R and Ike's head would be a narrow raised bridge on the die, and probably would wear faster than the rest of the die when polished.

You can see in all of your photos where traces of the serif are visible. That is not the case with the 71-S peg-legs. On the 71-S, the left leg of the R ends quite cleanly and the serif is just plain gone.

I don't see how the 71-S peg-leg could be created by die polishing, because even if you purposely ground down the exact spot on the die to the point where the lower-leg and serif of the R was completely removed, then on the resulting coin you would see the leg cut off by a RAISED field, and that is not the case. Instead on the coin the leg cuts off cleanly on a normally recessed field. (The right leg of the R also looks different on a peg-leg, and it might be a different story... it sort of blends into the field.)

Take a look at an uncirculated 72-S in real-life -- it's a completely different obverse, but all 72-S have a peg-leg style R and the left leg of it looks about the same as the left leg on a 71-S peg leg.

DHeath · December 18, 2003 10:10PM

The field just between the lower leg of the R and Ike's head would be a narrow raised bridge on the die, and probably would wear faster than the rest of the die when polished.

Hey, you understood my terrible explaination.

Thanks. It certainly appears to me that the last coin in my progression would fool a casual observer, and if the trace of the remaining serif were further abraded, would be difficult to identify. Hopefully, the new Ike tome will list a few other diagnostics.

Michael, if you get a chance, post a pic.

DHeath · December 25, 2003 4:18AM

OK, I was curious if the 71 peg was a created by similar means, so I went back to Breen, and he said the following: "1971-S Peg Leg proofs(serif off foot of R in Liberty) due to excessive die polish." Maybe it's the same process for the 72-D.

ksteelheader · December 25, 2003 4:29AM

Interesting info guys. Since I'm going to start a raw Ike collection in the near future, why don't you all send them to me for safekeeping...Ken

MrEureka · December 25, 2003 7:51AM

Looks more like die erosion than die polishing. Look at the area to the left of the "peg leg". Looks like the whole area, including the peg leg, is being swept out to sea.

DHeath · December 31, 2003 10:28AM

I dug around in my lastest roll and found an interesting coin. There is lots of die polish evident on the obverse, but the peg is pretty clean.

Rampage · December 31, 2003 10:34AM

Don-

All my 72D Pegs look like the last one you pictured.

I know ANACS will slab the 72D as Peg LEg if requested free of charge.

Richard.

DHeath · December 31, 2003 10:39AM

Richard,

That coin is part of ½ roll I just got today. I'll put up a few better pics tomorrow. They look like keepers. I'm glad ANACS is attributing them, and thanks for the tip.

Rampage · December 31, 2003 10:42AM

Don-

The best part about ANACS is their $7.00 per coin modern service. 5 or 10 coin minimum though.

Even still, if you are not in a hurry to get them back, you can save allot with that service.

I use it all the time, but hate the long wait to get them back.

Still the best service for the money.

Richard.

DHeath · January 1, 2004 5:03AM

One last interesting (to me) pic. This coin looks almost prooflike, and doesn't have the normal frosty Ike look. Heavy die polish lines are evident without a loupe in front of the bust. Perhaps I'll get to talk about it with ANACS at FUN.

BTW - Andy, while I was rereading Breen's notes, I saw a reference to your type II no S proof. That is a pretty unusual Ike.

FrattLaw · January 1, 2004 10:43AM

Don -- since you asked nicely

My 72-D isn't prooflike, rather it has a nice amount of luster and does not have any die polish lines that I can see around the R, but there are lines in front of his forehead.

Michael

DHeath · January 1, 2004 11:13AM

Thanks Michael. I'm still trying to sort these guys out. Your's appears to be a weak serif, whether from die erosion or polishing. It is a LDS of the coins I showed in the progression. I have also found ½ a roll of coins exactly like the last one I pictured, with very prooflike surfaces, and die polish lines in the obverse field in front of the bust on all of these coins. The lower serif is extremely crisp and clean. In the pic below, I angled the camera to capture the surface. The coin on the right is an ordinary 72-D.

MSD61 · January 1, 2004 11:23AM

My 72-D....but no peg-leg

FrattLaw · January 1, 2004 11:28AM

Hmmm... not sure ANACs agrees that it's a Peg-Leg and not die erosion or polishing. I submitted it @ the last Long Beach show and prior to giving it to them I asked Mike if it was die polish or die erosion and he said no.

But good luck. It's just easier if you wait until FUN, instead of driving yourself nuts. Yours are probably Peg-Legs. Apparently they aren't that rare. I was the second one to discuss these and I was told that Wexler has noted this variety in his new Ike book.

Michael

supercoin · January 1, 2004 11:44AM

I have a hard time seeing how a sharply cut peg-leg like the one DHeath posted could be the result solely of die polishing...

... because the R would be incuse on the die, so there'd be no way to sharply cut off the bottom without also destroying the field which is raised on the die. But in the photo of the resulting coin the field appears normal.

But if was a "real" variety it's also a little strange that there's essentially nothing written about them. They seem to be popping up everywhere.

Part of the fun in collecting a series that is still largely underappreciated!

DHeath · January 21, 2004 5:35AM

Just a quick follow-up post. Two of the roll coins with the sharply cut lower serif are just back from ANACS with the pegged-leg designation. Both graded MS-63.

misterR · January 21, 2004 8:00AM

A 71-D I found. It is in a PCGS slab, MS64. 1971-D Ike "pegleg"

DHeath · January 21, 2004 8:10AM

Very nice.

I'm anxious to see what the new books has to say about them. Hopefully soon.

cladking · January 21, 2004 2:20PM

Fascinating.

Thanks.

72-D Ike pegged leg revisited (pics)

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