Scarsdale: You showed great patience and decorum with this liar and I compliment you on that. He certainly did not deserve it and you certainly did not deserve the neg. Someone who obviously missrepresented himself and showed extreme arrogance throughout the whole transaction. You are of course correct when you say that he totally ignored your numerous initial correspondence. Keep up the great work.
There are obviously a few here that have NEVER been screwed by an overseas bidder. Until you have, keep the rose colored glasses on. I am not saying the man was a fraud.....We will never know how this may have come down, I find it amazing that this wonderful secretary of the Barons is so good, and yet they STILL bid on the item after being told NOT to. I 'll stick to my guns on this one. It had all the signs of a good scam. They might have finished the deal because a little money spent now will bring bigger rewards down the line..Maybe some of you here will be glad to accept his offers on your auctions......the next time.
<< <i>There are obviously a few here that have NEVER been screwed by an overseas bidder. >>
I actually have had a few overseas transactions – out of hundreds – prove bad; it hardly makes me want to damn all foreigners. Are there any here who have NEVER been screwed by an American bidder? What should the response to that be? T&Cs that state “Will not ship out of Georgia” or maybe “Will not ship out of Brunswick”? How many sellers here have complained about deadbeat US buyers lately or US bidders who can’t seem to read the T&Cs? Didn’t someone recently complain about being negged for not taking PayPal when his T&Cs stated that he did not? Why must foreign customers be held to a much higher standard of perfection – and on eBay no less?
To me, as someone who has done extensive business overseas, most of what were being called “red flags” were nothing more than “red herrings.” I trust Coçkney’s finding that Yuen isn’t a real Baron. On the other hand, I also know that when the UK agreed to return Hong Kong to the PRC, it cut adrift its subjects in the colony and refused to grant them citizenship. Anyone who professed to have such ties certainly tried to assert them so they wouldn’t become just another body among the voiceless people of the PRC. That doesn’t excuse him for making any false claims, but anybody who knows anything about Eastern cultures knows about the concept of face – and what was one of Jon’s very earliest messages to his customer:
<< <i>ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>
(Emphasis added.) Not “scammers” but “you scammers.” At that time there wasn’t, IMO, enough evidence for that – just a bidder who was confused by the seller’s T&Cs.
I can just imagine Vivien’s reaction reading all the hostile reactions here where every slip was jumped on and every action interpreted in the most critical fashion. If she’s a professional assistant to an executive, she probably has never had to deal with such an atmosphere in her career before. It’s no doubt that there’s at least one more person who now dislikes Americans; if she’s a scammer, it’s no loss, but if she’s not, it’s a crying shame.
and what was one of Jon’s very earliest messages to his customer:
<< ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>
please put in context..... this was a repeat of what was in the auction "fine print terms" not something I just went and wrote....
now the newest update is at the advice of members of the board, I have filed for a removal of the Neg with Square Trade.... I'll keep you posted....
Jon, I hope you have reduced your "terms" to about 2 or 3 sentences to clear them up. I myself would not bid on something if I had to read volumes of print about terms, conditions, etc...
FWIW I think you went about the process of obtaining the money properly to insure you didn't get screwed but I really don't think the guy's info should have been posted.
Good Luck with Squaretrade but I doubt you'll be able to get the neg removed if the red baron provides them with this link.
<< <i>now the newest update is at the advice of members of the board, I have filed for a removal of the Neg with Square Trade.... I'll keep you posted.... >>
I'm curious- on what grounds? Certainly the buyer has a right to express his negative feelings about the way the auction went- isn't that the purpose of feedback?
ASKARI......I'll tell you this...I have had a lot easier time getting money or settlement from a US bidder than I have on any foreign bidders...You can believe that if you want.......I still think the hoops that he put the baron through made this deal work for him. How many of your foreign deals that collapsed have you been able to collect on?
He could not possibly have received the merchandise before leaving all those feedbacks. Might just be newness to eBay, but it would also be an excellent way to keep up appearances during the amount of time it takes for the chargebacks to start coming in.
Interesting thread. I'm surprised the money actually showed up, but stranger things happen. I find it hard to believe that there was not some alternate motives from how hard the buyers tried to purchase the item after being told NO several times. The part that actually makes me convinced that there was some fraud intent was all of the drivel about lawsuits and slander, etc. Anyone who is in the position that they claimed would know that there was no basis for any legal action here; and that even if they wanted to make something out of the original comment about double shipping, the case would cost more than the original purchase cost. Oh well, it was interesting reading. Glad you got your money, Jon!
Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
<< <i>How many of your foreign deals that collapsed have you been able to collect on? >>
About a quarter. It's not all that easy to collect on bad interstate deals in the US either, but at least we all are subject to the same federal statutes. The global postal agreements are less comprehensive simply because not all countries' postal services work to the same standards of service. In fact, a few years ago when the cross-carrier insurance rates were renegotiated, the US dropped overseas insurance coverage to a negligible amount. Now that their liability ends when handed over to the foreign government, they have a lot less payout.
I have no problems with the hoops Jon put the Baron through. You'll note that I had advised him that several purportedly secure means of money transfer were not necessarily so and that his bank could probably advise him of the most secure way to accomplish the transfer (and credit cards certainly were not it). Frankly, for many years it's been standard practice off-eBay that shipments to overseas coin buyers has been at the buyer's risk -- both from Europe to the US and vice versa. If my intuition was buzzing, I'd certainly not hesitate to require a confirmed PayPal address. I don't think calling the guy a scammer without firmer evidence was called for; Jon only needed to advise that his experience with overseas scammers has led to his no longer shipping outside the US.
As for the threats of legal action over slander, remember, Hong Kong was a Crown colony and its common courts used British common law; under British jurisprudence, slander is a much more serious offense than it is in America and requires a somewhat lower standard of proof according to my understanding. He wouldn't likely know that his odds of winning were negligible in a US court. He actually would have to go to his lawyers to learn that and I'm sure they'd advise it really wouldn't be worth his effort.
You are correct when you mention that the "scammer" text was part of the original LENGTHY auction description, but you neglect to realize or state that it was RESENT out of its entirety to the Baron by Jon very early on in the deal. So, when the Baron received that sentence about "you SCAMMERS....", it could very easily have been (and seems to have been) interpretted as being directed at the email recipient (the baron in this case).
btw...wingedliberty.....you really make me wonder if you are as ignorant as you seem to be......have you ever dealt with "foreigners"? If I am naive, then I would rather be naive than ignorant, but sheeesh, your posts really make me wonder about how you interact with people who don't look like you in the mirror or who talk with an accent or who grew up differently.
There are obviously 2 camps to this thread and it seems that those that are used to dealing with "foreigners" are willing to allow for language/cultural barriers to be overcome. No one is saying Jon shouldn't have made the baron go through the "hoops" about getting the money, but many are not reading the thread carefully and are jumping to conclusions.
Case in point....sequence of early events...(1) email sent by baron asking to bid on auction (which had confusing text regarding whether overseas was allowed or not....in 1 spot it was clearly stated NO overseas (non US), but in another spot it clearly said that overseas would be TWICE as much shipping) (2) Baron bid before getting a response (3) Response sent saying "rather not have his bid" (4) Baron wins - saga starts
So, what I don't recall ever seeing/hearing is time/date stamp of when baron asked to bid, time/date stamp of Baron bidding, and time/date stamp of Jon replying (and time/date stamp of when email was received by baron). Reason is that many who use ebay don't get instant responses to their questions so they get antsy...many don't get promt replies within a day. There is a large timezone difference between the US and hong kong...daytime in one is night in the other mostly...can really throw things around.
So, to the people that say the baron ignored the email not to bid, you are wrong...he had ALREADY bid (according to Jon's earlier statements).
Jon had 2 choices at that point: (A) Cancel the bid - possibly block the bidder (B) Allow the bid to go through and, if won, hold up to his end of the deal and follow-through
Jon followed (B) and, aside from some of his email wordings and posting of personal stuff (which, other people's words in this thread certainly didn't help the buyer feel good) did a great job of learning and getting his money and sending the agreed upon goods out....for which Jon received the max amount of money. If he had cancelled the Baron's bid, then where, theoretically, would his high bid have ended up? 1 unit lower (doubt that very much)? $100 lower? $200 lower? I don't know, but the way it went Jon got the max for his goods and learned a lot.
I learned too....I learned that some people appear quite bigotted. I learned that some people are just wary. I learned that some people can't seem to admit when they are wrong and to apologize. I learned that many people get bullied by others even on this forum and won't post publicly because of how they see others get treated (about the time that wingedliberty called me "one of those foreigners" and they PM instead saying "thanks" for stating their views as well.
Jon, I am still glad that, aside from the negative, things worked out for you. Wingedliberty, I am still sorry you are stuck out in the hills with the hatfields and mccoys
in answer to terms, yes we revamped our terms and cut them way down.....folks who know what we do know that the terms have for years been a spoof, in fact for several months I offered a silver dollar to folks who read the terms all the way and came to the line about a free silver dollar if you got that far...I only had to ship 2 out....so I guess no one really reads the fine print....
HavanaJoe
in answer to your question, on what grounds....
Auction was not open to International buyers to bid, hence not a valid ebay transaction to leave feedback on....
but lets see what ebay/square trade say.....
Now since I owe a round of drinks at ANA, does anyone want to make side bets on the outcome of the Neg Removal????
Hey, for what it's worth, I think you handled things fine. There were some serious red flags in that whole sequence of events. I'm still not convinced they are on the up and up, despite you getting paid.
Wow..... I read the entire 200+ posts from start to finish.. I missed this one first time around. It's difficult to say scam or not, but even if it was legit, the buyer should have realized how this could be construed as a scam. Naive, perhaps? New to ebay? Maybe, but common sense should have told Vivien that there was reason to be suspicious. Perhaps it truely was legitimate, and in those higher circles they would not think the same as we. However, I admit, from reading the initial exchanges, this reeked of a scam of the highest proportion!!
Coin selling on Ebay is not like international business where corporations and high-end retail boutiques know their customers and can be satisfied parting with expensive merchandise with a simple credit card. Trying to equate this transaction with business deals or standard business protocols just doesn't fly for that reason.
I must address the ignorance posting that stated "this thread helps explain the US trade defecit." That statement is complete malarky, and you haven't a clue what you are talking about. The US trade defecit has nothing to do with the personaltiy and business style of a US coin dealer. It has to do with unfair trade practices, cheap foreign labor, trade liberalization and the lack of decent working conditions, pay, health benefits and pensions in developing nations. Not to mention another myriad of factors that I really don't need to write an entire essay on at the moment. Read a newspaper before you spout off at the keyboard.
I do not believe paypal will cover me for out of country ...using a credit card....to many frauds.....I do not see how we can complete this transaction. You should not have bid, it was in my auction that we do not ship out of country.....
IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT.....
ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>
Russ, that's the entirety of the specific email Jon posted. Note that he did not write "IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT IN MY AUCTION TERMS & CONDITIONS", but simply "IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT". In other words, as Bochiman observed, Jon took it out of its own original context with no reference back to the auction -- and by this time, Vivien, not Mr. Yuen (who appears to have placed the original bid as best I can tell) was now handling his affairs. Out of context, as Jon emailed it, I would forgive anyone for taking "IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT" to mean "JUST IN CASE YOU'RE DENSE, READ MY LIPS, STUPID...". In fact, that's how I read it when I first saw it, because I hadn't at that point read his auction page. It's no wonder that, as written in his email, Vivien took it as Jon accusing her employer of being a scammer.
I think it's well understood that what Jon meant to communicate and what the buyer understood his messages to import weren't entirely in sync. There's nothing in this misunderstanding that couldn't have occurred between two US members of this forum, as anyone who has been reading these forums for a while can confirm. I know Russ has been here long enough to witness more than a few verbal brawls here between someone who took insult at something not meant to be an insult. Such misunderstanding should be expected and allowed for online, because it's an informal written media. Phone conversations permit communication of more subtle information through our tone of voice and inflections -- which are absent in this media (short of emoticons). Face-to-face communication is a far richer form of communication because then we include facial expressions, body language, and so on, much of which we "read" subconsciously and through our particular cultural lens.
You know, this may be the "Liteside," but y'all really need to learn how to lighten up!! Where's those beers, Jon???
Jon ask me to post something from our (yes, friendly) exchange of PMs as he thought it might be of more general interest. In context, he had informed me that he had decided to cease accepting overseas bids for business reasons, generally the additional cost for little appreciable increase in profitability. This was my response.
<< <i>I understand the business aspects, Jon, especially the losses in the mail. As much as we like to complain about the USPS, it's certainly one of the most reliable and safest ways to ship, compared to other postal services, even in other first-world countries. All of my losses have been to the postal services of the UK, Germany, France, and Belgium. Singapore has proven too dangerous for scammers and I stopped doing business with anyone in Indonesia a couple years ago for the same reason. You also have to be very careful with China. On the other hand, I've never lost anything dealing with crime-ridden states in Eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union, Argentina, Brazil, and the Balkans. I've even dealt successfully and problem-free with a dealer in Nepal during the midst of fighting in the capital, where the dealer lives. I am backing off of [purchasing] transactions denominated in Euros and Pounds right now, though, due to the depreciation of the Dollar. Still, the Dollar's weakness means their [Europeans'] purchasing power has risen 25% or more, so they're stronger buyers. It's potentially more profitable to do business overseas now than it has been in several years.
Anyhow, I do wish you and yours a wonderful New Year and one with far less stress than this year!!
Comments
You showed great patience and decorum with this liar and I compliment you on that. He certainly did not deserve it and you certainly did not deserve the neg. Someone who obviously missrepresented himself and showed extreme arrogance throughout the whole transaction. You are of course correct when you say that he totally ignored your numerous initial correspondence. Keep up the great work.
<< <i>There are obviously a few here that have NEVER been screwed by an overseas bidder. >>
I actually have had a few overseas transactions – out of hundreds – prove bad; it hardly makes me want to damn all foreigners. Are there any here who have NEVER been screwed by an American bidder? What should the response to that be? T&Cs that state “Will not ship out of Georgia” or maybe “Will not ship out of Brunswick”? How many sellers here have complained about deadbeat US buyers lately or US bidders who can’t seem to read the T&Cs? Didn’t someone recently complain about being negged for not taking PayPal when his T&Cs stated that he did not? Why must foreign customers be held to a much higher standard of perfection – and on eBay no less?
To me, as someone who has done extensive business overseas, most of what were being called “red flags” were nothing more than “red herrings.” I trust Coçkney’s finding that Yuen isn’t a real Baron. On the other hand, I also know that when the UK agreed to return Hong Kong to the PRC, it cut adrift its subjects in the colony and refused to grant them citizenship. Anyone who professed to have such ties certainly tried to assert them so they wouldn’t become just another body among the voiceless people of the PRC. That doesn’t excuse him for making any false claims, but anybody who knows anything about Eastern cultures knows about the concept of face – and what was one of Jon’s very earliest messages to his customer:
<< <i>ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>
(Emphasis added.) Not “scammers” but “you scammers.” At that time there wasn’t, IMO, enough evidence for that – just a bidder who was confused by the seller’s T&Cs.
I can just imagine Vivien’s reaction reading all the hostile reactions here where every slip was jumped on and every action interpreted in the most critical fashion. If she’s a professional assistant to an executive, she probably has never had to deal with such an atmosphere in her career before. It’s no doubt that there’s at least one more person who now dislikes Americans; if she’s a scammer, it’s no loss, but if she’s not, it’s a crying shame.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
and what was one of Jon’s very earliest messages to his customer:
<< ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>
please put in context..... this was a repeat of what was in the auction "fine print terms" not something I just went and wrote....
now the newest update is at the advice of members of the board, I have filed for a removal of the Neg with Square Trade.... I'll keep you posted....
I hope you have reduced your "terms" to about 2 or 3 sentences to clear them up. I myself would not bid on something if I had to read volumes of print about terms, conditions, etc...
FWIW I think you went about the process of obtaining the money properly to insure you didn't get screwed but I really don't think the guy's info should have been posted.
Good Luck with Squaretrade but I doubt you'll be able to get the neg removed if the red baron provides them with this link.
<< <i>now the newest update is at the advice of members of the board, I have filed for a removal of the Neg with Square Trade.... I'll keep you posted.... >>
I'm curious- on what grounds? Certainly the buyer has a right to express his negative feelings about the way the auction went- isn't that the purpose of feedback?
Silver American Eagles ROCK
--------
Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes
from the circling skies
Tongue tied and twisted
Just an earthbound misfit,
I
">my registry set
The majority of the feedback was left within a day or two of auction close.
He could not possibly have received the merchandise before leaving all those feedbacks. Might just be newness to eBay, but it would also be an excellent way to keep up appearances during the amount of time it takes for the chargebacks to start coming in.
Russ, NCNE
but stranger things happen. I find it hard to believe that there
was not some alternate motives from how hard the buyers tried
to purchase the item after being told NO several times. The part
that actually makes me convinced that there was some fraud intent
was all of the drivel about lawsuits and slander, etc. Anyone who
is in the position that they claimed would know that there was no
basis for any legal action here; and that even if they wanted to make
something out of the original comment about double shipping, the
case would cost more than the original purchase cost.
Oh well, it was interesting reading. Glad you got your money, Jon!
<< <i>How many of your foreign deals that collapsed have you been able to collect on? >>
About a quarter. It's not all that easy to collect on bad interstate deals in the US either, but at least we all are subject to the same federal statutes. The global postal agreements are less comprehensive simply because not all countries' postal services work to the same standards of service. In fact, a few years ago when the cross-carrier insurance rates were renegotiated, the US dropped overseas insurance coverage to a negligible amount. Now that their liability ends when handed over to the foreign government, they have a lot less payout.
I have no problems with the hoops Jon put the Baron through. You'll note that I had advised him that several purportedly secure means of money transfer were not necessarily so and that his bank could probably advise him of the most secure way to accomplish the transfer (and credit cards certainly were not it). Frankly, for many years it's been standard practice off-eBay that shipments to overseas coin buyers has been at the buyer's risk -- both from Europe to the US and vice versa. If my intuition was buzzing, I'd certainly not hesitate to require a confirmed PayPal address. I don't think calling the guy a scammer without firmer evidence was called for; Jon only needed to advise that his experience with overseas scammers has led to his no longer shipping outside the US.
As for the threats of legal action over slander, remember, Hong Kong was a Crown colony and its common courts used British common law; under British jurisprudence, slander is a much more serious offense than it is in America and requires a somewhat lower standard of proof according to my understanding. He wouldn't likely know that his odds of winning were negligible in a US court. He actually would have to go to his lawyers to learn that and I'm sure they'd advise it really wouldn't be worth his effort.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<< <i>I don't think calling the guy a scammer without firmer evidence was called for >>
Askari,
Jon didn't call him a scammer. That was in his original auction terms and was directed at all bidders in general, not this bidder in particular.
Russ, NCNE
You are correct when you mention that the "scammer" text was part of the original LENGTHY auction description, but you neglect to realize or state that it was RESENT out of its entirety to the Baron by Jon very early on in the deal.
So, when the Baron received that sentence about "you SCAMMERS....", it could very easily have been (and seems to have been) interpretted as being directed at the email recipient (the baron in this case).
btw...wingedliberty.....you really make me wonder if you are as ignorant as you seem to be......have you ever dealt with "foreigners"? If I am naive, then I would rather be naive than ignorant, but sheeesh, your posts really make me wonder about how you interact with people who don't look like you in the mirror or who talk with an accent or who grew up differently.
There are obviously 2 camps to this thread and it seems that those that are used to dealing with "foreigners" are willing to allow for language/cultural barriers to be overcome. No one is saying Jon shouldn't have made the baron go through the "hoops" about getting the money, but many are not reading the thread carefully and are jumping to conclusions.
Case in point....sequence of early events...(1) email sent by baron asking to bid on auction (which had confusing text regarding whether overseas was allowed or not....in 1 spot it was clearly stated NO overseas (non US), but in another spot it clearly said that overseas would be TWICE as much shipping)
(2) Baron bid before getting a response
(3) Response sent saying "rather not have his bid"
(4) Baron wins - saga starts
So, what I don't recall ever seeing/hearing is time/date stamp of when baron asked to bid, time/date stamp of Baron bidding, and time/date stamp of Jon replying (and time/date stamp of when email was received by baron).
Reason is that many who use ebay don't get instant responses to their questions so they get antsy...many don't get promt replies within a day. There is a large timezone difference between the US and hong kong...daytime in one is night in the other mostly...can really throw things around.
So, to the people that say the baron ignored the email not to bid, you are wrong...he had ALREADY bid (according to Jon's earlier statements).
Jon had 2 choices at that point:
(A) Cancel the bid - possibly block the bidder
(B) Allow the bid to go through and, if won, hold up to his end of the deal and follow-through
Jon followed (B) and, aside from some of his email wordings and posting of personal stuff (which, other people's words in this thread certainly didn't help the buyer feel good) did a great job of learning and getting his money and sending the agreed upon goods out....for which Jon received the max amount of money.
If he had cancelled the Baron's bid, then where, theoretically, would his high bid have ended up? 1 unit lower (doubt that very much)? $100 lower? $200 lower? I don't know, but the way it went Jon got the max for his goods and learned a lot.
I learned too....I learned that some people appear quite bigotted. I learned that some people are just wary. I learned that some people can't seem to admit when they are wrong and to apologize. I learned that many people get bullied by others even on this forum and won't post publicly because of how they see others get treated (about the time that wingedliberty called me "one of those foreigners" and they PM instead saying "thanks" for stating their views as well.
Jon, I am still glad that, aside from the negative, things worked out for you.
Wingedliberty, I am still sorry you are stuck out in the hills with the hatfields and mccoys
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
in answer to terms, yes we revamped our terms and cut them way down.....folks who know what we do know that the terms have for years been a spoof, in fact for several months I offered a silver dollar to folks who read the terms all the way and came to the line about a free silver dollar if you got that far...I only had to ship 2 out....so I guess no one really reads the fine print....
HavanaJoe
in answer to your question, on what grounds....
Auction was not open to International buyers to bid, hence not a valid ebay transaction to leave feedback on....
but lets see what ebay/square trade say.....
Now since I owe a round of drinks at ANA, does anyone want to make side bets on the outcome of the Neg Removal????
happy New Years to all......
Or Clint's version, "Well, now you live with it."
I'd have to say you won't be able to get it removed. Just my guess.
Coin selling on Ebay is not like international business where corporations and high-end retail boutiques know their customers and can be satisfied parting with expensive merchandise with a simple credit card. Trying to equate this transaction with business deals or standard business protocols just doesn't fly for that reason.
I must address the ignorance posting that stated "this thread helps explain the US trade defecit." That statement is complete malarky, and you haven't a clue what you are talking about. The US trade defecit has nothing to do with the personaltiy and business style of a US coin dealer. It has to do with unfair trade practices, cheap foreign labor, trade liberalization and the lack of decent working conditions, pay, health benefits and pensions in developing nations. Not to mention another myriad of factors that I really don't need to write an entire essay on at the moment. Read a newspaper before you spout off at the keyboard.
it is a pretty good read....soon to be a best selling book and I am working on movie rights
I will be visiting him in the fall.
maybe Tom Hanks can play me in the movie version
<< <i>Jon Lerner wrote:
I do not believe paypal will cover me for out of country ...using a credit card....to many frauds.....I do not see how we can complete this transaction. You should not have bid, it was in my auction that we do not ship out of country.....
IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT.....
ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>
Russ, that's the entirety of the specific email Jon posted. Note that he did not write "IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT IN MY AUCTION TERMS & CONDITIONS", but simply "IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT". In other words, as Bochiman observed, Jon took it out of its own original context with no reference back to the auction -- and by this time, Vivien, not Mr. Yuen (who appears to have placed the original bid as best I can tell) was now handling his affairs. Out of context, as Jon emailed it, I would forgive anyone for taking "IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT" to mean "JUST IN CASE YOU'RE DENSE, READ MY LIPS, STUPID...". In fact, that's how I read it when I first saw it, because I hadn't at that point read his auction page. It's no wonder that, as written in his email, Vivien took it as Jon accusing her employer of being a scammer.
I think it's well understood that what Jon meant to communicate and what the buyer understood his messages to import weren't entirely in sync. There's nothing in this misunderstanding that couldn't have occurred between two US members of this forum, as anyone who has been reading these forums for a while can confirm. I know Russ has been here long enough to witness more than a few verbal brawls here between someone who took insult at something not meant to be an insult. Such misunderstanding should be expected and allowed for online, because it's an informal written media. Phone conversations permit communication of more subtle information through our tone of voice and inflections -- which are absent in this media (short of emoticons). Face-to-face communication is a far richer form of communication because then we include facial expressions, body language, and so on, much of which we "read" subconsciously and through our particular cultural lens.
You know, this may be the "Liteside," but y'all really need to learn how to lighten up!!
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<< <i>I understand the business aspects, Jon, especially the losses in the mail. As much as we like to complain about the USPS, it's certainly one of the most reliable and safest ways to ship, compared to other postal services, even in other first-world countries. All of my losses have been to the postal services of the UK, Germany, France, and Belgium. Singapore has proven too dangerous for scammers and I stopped doing business with anyone in Indonesia a couple years ago for the same reason. You also have to be very careful with China. On the other hand, I've never lost anything dealing with crime-ridden states in Eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union, Argentina, Brazil, and the Balkans. I've even dealt successfully and problem-free with a dealer in Nepal during the midst of fighting in the capital, where the dealer lives. I am backing off of [purchasing] transactions denominated in Euros and Pounds right now, though, due to the depreciation of the Dollar. Still, the Dollar's weakness means their [Europeans'] purchasing power has risen 25% or more, so they're stronger buyers. It's potentially more profitable to do business overseas now than it has been in several years.
Anyhow, I do wish you and yours a wonderful New Year and one with far less stress than this year!!
Regards,
Mark >>
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!