Fabulous Barry Stuppler MS-67 CC Morgan

DCAMFranklin · December 20, 2003 7:19AM

What an absolutely fabulous Carson City Morgan. Barry Stuppler provides the following in his description: "The Coin Dealer Newsletter now lists ICG in the indicator with a higher grader rating than all other grading services, including PCGS and NGC."

LINK

LucyBop · December 20, 2003 7:26AM

a rare dcamfrankie started thread..........

That coin is nice, but it seems to me there is chatter in the left obverse field in the front of Lady Libertys face...

I maybe wrong...

XpipedreamR · December 20, 2003 7:28AM

The coin

razorface1027 · December 20, 2003 9:12AM

Excellent luster, though thechatter in the truncation area and chipped denticle above 'U' would hinder me from purchasing this specimen as a 67...

DCAMFranklin · December 20, 2003 10:41AM

I would sure hope that Barry Stuppler would be forthright enough to disclose something like a "chipped denticle" in his auction description. I would hope that is a spot of tone.

razorface1027 · December 20, 2003 10:51AM

I've peered closely at the pic, and you know how pics can be...very deceiving. Barry's a very reputable dealer and I'm sure he would've specified it in his description. That damn truncation scuff, and in contrast with "The god's" grading criteria of course, would lead me to believe that 66 would be proper for this gorgeous specimen....

airplanenut · December 20, 2003 11:09AM

Well, it could be a piece of plastic holding the coin in place... most grading companies use them... look at older PCGS holders...

LUCKOFTHEIRISH · December 20, 2003 11:25AM

That coin should be a MS 68 in my book.

Gilbert · December 21, 2003 12:50AM

Looking only at the image included in the thread, it is a very nice looking specimen with kinda' nice details above the ear. I believe that denticle issue is probably a metal deformity and the activity at the truncation is relatively minor.

I have made a couple of purchases from Barry Stuppler and found his images are just a tad better looking than the actual coin. In other words, the image appears to present the coin in the best possible light, literally. I'm not saying he is decpetive, as I haven't found the need to return; only a hair of disappointment when receiving the coin because it wasn't just as outstanding as the image.

In any event, I think that if it isn't a true 67, it has to be damned close. I would love to own this coin, though.

MrEureka · December 21, 2003 1:43AM

From the eBay listing: my concerns about the liquidity (of ICG coins) have now gone away

All I can say is...on second thought, forget about it, never mind, gotta go.

PhillyJoe · December 21, 2003 2:09AM

He's asking around 80% of CU list for an ICG graded 67. If it's really a 66, that is a very expensive $900 list coin. If it's a 67 you're already at a healthy price. Here's another case that if it really was a 67 it would have been sent to PCGS a long time ago. Remember Santa only comes one day a year. JMHO.

Joe

roadrunner · December 21, 2003 2:34AM

Like other retailers on the internet, Stuppler, HNAI, NACT, Hamrick, etc...they are just looking to move product. Don't expect bargains or solidly graded coins as a rule. The whole concept is to sell the holder/insert. That's basically what 90% of internet selling is all about. Another 9% makes up coins that haven't been around or run through the services a bazillion times. I love to try and ferret nice coins out from this group. Duvall gold is one such seller. And the last 1% are your occasional "Bustman" type quality sellers who really know what the heck they are doing and that what they have is indeed top end quality. You decide which pond to fish in.

roadrunner

lava · December 21, 2003 3:10AM

Looks like a nice coin, but one coin doesn't make me fall in love with ICG. In my humble opinion, marketability of coins is, from most to least, PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and then everything else. As a rule of thumb, if the coin's owner didn't think the coin worthy of one of the top three, then I don't think of the coin as worthy of ownership.

MrEureka · December 21, 2003 3:12AM

As a rule of thumb, if the coin's owner didn't think the coin worthy of one of the top three, then I don't think of the coin as worthy of ownership.

lava - Why would you care what a previous owner thinks of the coin?

abuell · December 21, 2003 4:39AM

<<Remember, coin prices are still at 40-50% of their 1990 highs.>>

Wow, jump right on these extremely rare, investment grade Morgan dollars. I wish that I could buy Fugios at 200% of their 1990 prices!!

dbldie55 · December 21, 2003 4:53AM

<< <i>Looks like a nice coin, but one coin doesn't make me fall in love with ICG. In my humble opinion, marketability of coins is, from most to least, PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and then everything else. As a rule of thumb, if the coin's owner didn't think the coin worthy of one of the top three, then I don't think of the coin as worthy of ownership. >>

You should read the thread of the ICG Indian that crossed to PCGS. Same coin, different plastic.

tradedollarnut · December 21, 2003 4:55AM

Remember, coin prices are still at 40-50% of their 1990 highs

Ahhh, but since most PQ coins have gone up 1-2 grades since 1990, is that really true?

roadrunner · December 21, 2003 8:42AM

TDN, you hit the nail on the head of one of the biggest fallacies in today's market. We are indeed at 1989 prices on many series, and in some cases (bust dollars, Lincs, Washies, Indians, and most 20th cent sets) are way way beyond that. Considering that a PQ 64 seated quarter brought around $1500-1800 in 1990, and today would likely grade a 66 (worth $2000), you can see that PQ coins have closed the gap on 1990 prices. There are still plenty of holes in the continuum so find them while you can....it won't last forever.

Even MS64 Saints ended the 1990 market at $1000 a coin. Yet probably all of those would be 65's today. They're worth more today.

roadrunner

MrEureka · December 21, 2003 9:31AM

Even MS64 Saints ended the 1990 market at $1000 a coin. Yet probably all of those would be 65's today.

Brian - Almost completely false. If you go through random groups of 1989 graded MS 64 gold, most are NOT upgrades. It's only the PQ coins that regularly upgrade today. However, because you have a good eye, I have no doubt that any that YOU would have put away for yourself would grade higher today.

tradedollarnut · December 21, 2003 10:23AM

There is a definite stratification, and it does favor proofs and select high end MS coins. Eye appealing PF64's of the late 80's are in many cases 2-3 grades higher now. Very high end MS coins are 1-2 grades higher now.

Being selective does have its rewards........

wallstreetman · December 21, 2003 10:57AM

Anyone who says ICG is more credible than PCGS will never get my business!

MrEureka · December 21, 2003 11:07AM

Anyone who says ICG is more credible than PCGS will never get my business!

Nobody said that ICG is more credible. Read the Stuppler ad more carefully.

Also, read the CDN's "Certified Coin Market Indicator" text more carefully. The indicator only reflects sight unseen bidding activity for a number of coins listed in the July 1988 Monthly Summary.

roadrunner · December 21, 2003 11:17AM

Andy, the only way to determine random groups of coins from the 1990's is to have access to untouched hoards. I purchased about a dozen MS63 saints (sight unseen via mail bid) from a Stacks sale where about a 100 pieces were being sold off from an investment group. If anything, those coins were average quality if they got sold to a financial group during the frantic 1989 market. Essentially every single first gen rattler upgraded to 64. I can only surmise that since I got these by bidding higher than floor bidders (and missed out on the other 88 pieces or so) then I got the bottom of the barrel. 75% of those coins upgraded. One of those was a shot 65 coin too. I would submit that fresh groups of early graded coins are in fact mostly (>50%) upgrades from what I have seen.

I would guess that each person has his own experience with such hoards. Maybe the one I lucked into was actually hand picked by
Sil or Iraj

roadrunner

Peaceman · December 21, 2003 11:33AM

He had a Peace dollar in a 65 holder from ICG... I told them I'd buy it as long as they submitted it to PCGS for a cross. Of course I'd pay all of the expenses.... if it crossed.... come to think of it... they never got back to me... I wonder why?

Placid · December 21, 2003 11:44AM

I personally have only crossed 2 icg graded coins to pcgs.
One went up one grade and the other down one grade.

The coin in the picture looks nice. I have seen worse looking ones in pcgs 68 holders.

Here are 2 pcgs 68's in the upcoming fun show.

1

2

Here is one with what looks like a rim problem at 3 o'clock.

Pesonally I find it hard it tell a pq 66 from a 67 or 68. I know I would not feel comfortable cracking every pcgs or ngc 67 morgan I see and resubmit it to pcgs and feel sure it would get the same grade.

au58 · December 22, 2003 2:17AM

Anyone who looks at a lot of coins would be wise to look closely at ICG graded CC dollars. Though tougher now than it used to be, there is some real value to be found there.

Fabulous Barry Stuppler MS-67 CC Morgan

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