At the risk of getting kicked out of here...

shylock · December 18, 2003 7:06AM

...why does DHRC change their internet address whenever I link one of their website listings? Yesterday I posted a cross they made from ICG and today their inventory coin exists on a new address (new address). The original address lists the coin as sold or no longer in their inventory. This isn't the first time this has happened. What's the big deal? I don't target them, and always find the grading game a fun & educational thing to watch no matter who cashes in.

toothpuller · December 18, 2003 8:35AM

A thread entilted "Nice Crossover" seems complimentary enough to me. Can't understand the problem, unless someone is afraid that your lesson could be mistakenly interpreted as involving some type of impropriety on their part.

shylock · December 18, 2003 8:37AM

Not a pleasant thread to respond to? Have we all become PCGSford Wives?

Russ · December 18, 2003 8:41AM

Might just be their IT Geek doing some shopping cart updates. The message that appears for the original link may just be a default template for when the item number changes or no longer exists.

Russ, NCNE

Pushkin · December 18, 2003 8:43AM

Spooky

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 8:46AM

It's ashame you are compelled to feel what your title thread expresses. What are we dealing with...The GESTAPO?

Dog97 · December 18, 2003 8:46AM

I don't know what in the hell <<<PCGSford Wives>>> are but if it'll make tyou feel any better I'll say I guess they didn't like you advertising that they bought a ICG IHC from Heritage for $2,000 & put it in their own holder and are now asking $8,000 for it.

MS68 · December 18, 2003 8:47AM

Paul- I bought the coin out of the Heritage sale for well under my max bid. Quite often I have been able to get ICG coins for a song. Believe it or not, ICG gets one right every now and then. I did not cross the coin. I cracked it out and sent it in raw. I thought it was a no-brainer 65RD and they obviously agreed with me at PCGS. Order the coin from DHRC and I think you will agree that the coin is very nice for the grade.

Russ · December 18, 2003 8:51AM

<< they bought a ICG IHC from Heritage for $2,000 & put it in their own holder and are now asking $8,000 for it. >>

<< Paul- I bought the coin out of the Heritage sale.... I did not cross the coin. I cracked it out and sent it in raw. >>

Russ, NCNE

shylock · December 18, 2003 8:59AM

Dave - thanks for the explanation. I don't doubt your eye or the current grade, I just don't understand the web address politics. The same thing happened when I linked the 1897 PCGS PR68 CAM a while back, a killer coin (link). Maybe it's a quirk of their website. When a coin like this is ripped for that price in an ICG holder it's news to me and everyone else in the IH collecting world.

allegri · December 18, 2003 9:01AM

Actually they may just resynch or renumber the DB they use which changes the link dynamically.

Regards,
-Brian

mdwoods · December 18, 2003 9:03AM

I thought it was a no-brainer 65RD and they obviously agreed with me at PCGS.

If MS68 thought it was a 65RD, I'm a believer. Dave has an eye for copper like few others.

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 9:33AM

This entire issue is a bit silly I believe (and I have no idea why coins for sale would disappear and reappear either). DHRC has a coin for sale at a certain price. When one thinks the price is way too high or way too low, often times it is discussed on these boards. I have not heard a comment that the price DHRC is offering this coin is too high nor do I follow the series close enough to make a comment one way or the other. But, where this coin came from before it was slabbed by PCGS is really immaterial IMHO. Who cares if MS68 had the coin drop out of a penny slot machine as he was waiting for his dinner buffet table at Circus Circus last month

Even pointing out it came from an ICG slab is quite meaningless - no one out there had any interest in running up MS68 higher on the coin - if they had, the coin might have sold for $6,000 in the ICG holder and there would be little to discuss.

The real issue of this thread is this - collectors who specialize in a series should learn to grade coins as efficiently as dealers out there, so they can win coins like this for say $6,000 at auction instead of paying $8,000 later. Not to mention, if they outbid MS68 a lot more often at auction, he might find something else to do more lucrative. Until then, someone left $4,000 or $5,000 on the table on this coin and an "eagle eye" dealer was savvy enough to swoop it up

Wondercoin

DCAMFranklin · December 18, 2003 9:35AM

<< I guess they didn't like you advertising that they bought a ICG IHC from Heritage for $2,000 & put it in their own holder and are now asking $8,000 for it. >>

Too funny!

Newmismatist · December 18, 2003 9:59AM

<< Paul- I bought the coin out of the Heritage sale for well under my max bid. Quite often I have been able to get ICG coins for a song. Believe it or not, ICG gets one right every now and then. I did not cross the coin. I cracked it out and sent it in raw. I thought it was a no-brainer 65RD and they obviously agreed with me at PCGS. Order the coin from DHRC and I think you will agree that the coin is very nice for the grade. >>

Dave is one of the best graders of copper IHCs that I have dealt with. Here's my take on this. Too many dealers & perhaps too many collectors have spent too much time denigrating other grading services to the point where a gem coin in say an ANACS holder, an ICG holder, or even an NGC holder is "worth" less because of the plastic that surrounds the coin. For those that subscribe to the "buy the coin not the plastic" there are some wonderful bargains to be had in buying non-PCGS graded coins. Now to do this you have to know HOW to grade (this eliminates FOM immediately), and you have to be able to determine if the coin has any "problems" that might prevent it from being graded by PCGS. THis takes skill, it is an acquired from making a concerted effort to learn how to grade coins. So while the upgrades and cross-overs occur, some wonder why suddenly the coin is worth 3x more than what is was worth say in that ICG holder. Often the answer is quite simple: the coin was under- valued when in its former holder, and I for one commend those who have the ability to buy the gem coins and ignore the plastic.

The flip side of this is those that not only consider the plastic more important that the coin, but also who believe that the OPINION on the insert is what makes the coin valuble, will ultimately suffer substantial financial losses! - By way of example: the PCGS 1963 PR70DCam Lincoln Memorial cent for sale in the current FUN Heritage signature sale has a coin that is 3 to 4 grades over-graded, is worth perhaps $15 when slabbed with its correct correct grade and $5 raw. It is a common coin, and I would guess if that same coin were in an ICG, NGC or ANACS slab that it would sell for between $5 to $15 because that's all the coin is worth and EVERYONE would be of the opinion that it probably wouldn't cross to a PCGS holder at WHATEVER grade it had.

My point is rather simple: If you buy the coin not the plastic, you can get some great bargains AND you can put together a great coin collection. Conversely, if you buy the plastic and NOT the coin, you can spend a lot of money foolishly, own nothing of value and you will never have a great coin collection. Those who think that the OPINION on the paper insert is what creates the value for the coin inside the slab will be in for a rude awakening down the road. At some point in the future, collectors will realize that owning the number 1 registry set of Proof Lincoln Memorial cents, while of modest interest to coin collectors, is the financial equivilent of owning the finest set of pet rocks - interesting but of little monetary value.

Take a tip from David Schweitz - buy nice coins, no matter whose slab they're in. There's some great cross-overs/upgrades waiting for someone with a good eye!

Oh BTW, there's no chance that Shylock will be kicked off of this forum. His photos, comments and keen eye for identifying coins are greatly appreciated by this forum, and if the moderators choose to ban him because of his pointing out the origins and "pedigrees" of coins, I believe a significant number of members of this forum would migrate elsewhere. Just MHO of course

shylock · December 18, 2003 10:00AM

Mitch/Wondercoin - I've been on these boards long enough to know one thing for certain. You don't don't chime in on a post unless it has some self-serving purpose. I know you have a relationship with Dave that drew you in here but give it a rest and go back to advertising in the Registry Forum because you're out of your element here. It may be silly to you that a coin sold for 2K a few months ago and is now asking 7K, but to the collectors on this forum it's an interesting subject. I never made a comment about the coin's attributes, I simply noted that it crossed from ICG to PCGS (Dave corrected that to cracked), and is now almost 4x as valuable. On top of that my original link was killed by DHRC. What I think is "silly" is the way you blatantly use the forum for your business interests, it's become almost comical.

DCAMFranklin · December 18, 2003 10:08AM

Very well said!

LucyBop · December 18, 2003 10:12AM

Dcamfrankie Dcamfrankie..........

LucyBop · December 18, 2003 10:17AM

chatroom?

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 10:26AM

My point is rather simple: If you buy the coin not the plastic, you can get some great bargains AND you can put together a great coin collection. Conversely, if you buy the plastic and NOT the coin, you can spend a lot of money foolishly, own nothing of value and you will never have a great coin collection. Those who think that the OPINION on the paper insert is what creates the value for the coin inside the slab will be in for a rude awakening down the road. At some point in the future, collectors will realize that owning the number 1 registry set of Proof Lincoln Memorial cents, while of modest interest to coin collectors, is the financial equivilent of owning the finest set of pet rocks - interesting but of little monetary value.

BRAVO NUMISMATIST! BRAVO! I'm glad some people feel the same way I do. I fell into the plastic game early, and find myself more and more deterred by the thought that I'm just buying the name and grade on the plastic. The major grading companies have ruined, IMO, what used to be a nice enjoyable hobby. It's people like you with your clear, concise, and honest prose regarding the "Plastic game" that makes it an easier transition for someone like me BACK to the basic art of collecting for the intrinsic reward and numismatics as a hobby. I'm getting TIRED of this game!.........I THANK YOU....

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 12:09PM

Shylock: My simple point is the exact same point then followed up on by another member. The holder means very little. It is all about the coins. If that is "self-serving" to you, I could care less. Look at the heading of your post "At the risk of getting kicked out of here" - for what? - matching up an ICG coin with a PCGS coin? Come on. As for a $2,000 coin becoming a $7,000 coin being an interesting subject - yes, it is. And, my "self-serving" point still remains - in most of these cases the coin was never a $2,000 coin to begin with. If you do not like my personal "agenda" in stating that, you are also free to debate it, but, I'll comment on any thread I see fit to comment on here.

Wondercoin

Russ · December 18, 2003 12:23PM

<< If your prior thread got booted by management as you state, I suspect it there was a good reason for it. >>

Where did he state that?

The thread is right here.

Russ, NCNE

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 12:26PM

Russ: Perhaps I misread this comment:

"On top of that my original link was killed by DHRC." I stand corrected on that. In fact, I'll edit my post now. Thank you.

Wondercoin

ANACONDA · December 18, 2003 12:30PM

"they bought a ICG IHC from Heritage for $2,000 & put it in their own holder and are now asking $8,000 for it."

WOW!

MS68 · December 18, 2003 12:37PM

Adrian- Why are you repeating a statement that was proven to be erroneous?

dbldie55 · December 18, 2003 12:58PM

Paul,

You need to quit doing this. Following the paths of coins! Next thing you know everyone will be doing it and they will come up with a term, like pedigree, for this. Numismatics will be ruined by action like this.

RKKay · December 18, 2003 1:09PM

Shylock: You are too good a man to be dragged through the mud for a simple observation. While I agree that it is possible for an ICG coin to be properly graded, and perhaps it was here, the almighty $$$ rules around here. At least that is what I was told one time when I foolishly offered advice as to the attribution of patterns.

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 1:24PM

Numismatics will be ruined by action like this.

Numismatics was RUINED the day GRADING COMPANIES stuck their nose in the game...JMO

LucyBop · December 18, 2003 1:26PM

<< Numismatics was RUINED the day GRADING COMPANIES stuck their nose in the game >>

yeah, please buy all the raw 1916d Mercs, 1909s VDB cents, and theres plenty of raw gold........

buy em all.......

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 1:31PM

yeah, please buy all the raw 1916d Mercs, 1909s VDB cents, and theres plenty of raw gold........

Lucy...why, so you can get all the authentic ones?........NOT....

michael · December 18, 2003 4:10PM

paul when someone has something to hide....................................

they fear the light

which is okie

never be afraid paul to open the light on things

michael

michael · December 18, 2003 4:15PM

Mitch/Wondercoin - I've been on these boards long enough to know one thing for certain. You don't don't chime in on a post unless it has some self-serving purpose. I know you have a relationship with Dave that drew you in here but give it a rest and go back to advertising in the Registry Forum because you're out of your element here. It may be silly to you that a coin sold for 2K a few months ago and is now asking 7K, but to the collectors on this forum it's an interesting subject. I never made a comment about the coin's attributes, I simply noted that it crossed from ICG to PCGS (Dave corrected that to cracked), and is now almost 4x as valuable. On top of that my original link was killed by DHRC. What I think is "silly" is the way you blatantly use the forum for your business interests, it's become almost comical.

well said paul

michael

braddick · December 18, 2003 8:25PM

<< Numismatics will be ruined by action like this. Numismatics was RUINED the day GRADING COMPANIES stuck their nose in the game...JMO >>

Pretty strong words here. Are you sure you feel this way in the light of day?

IrishMike · December 18, 2003 8:35PM

Paul not to worry when you post on this forum experienced collectors always enjoy your comments. You and a handful of others are the type of collectors that keep people coming back for more information and enjoyment of the hobby. Your posts are always balanced and without regard to any personal motivation, exactly what this forum was meant to be. The majority of us can and have smoked out those who primarily post for their own personal aggrandizement and monetary gain.

Regardless of what happened to the link you have the absolute right to point it out and question it. If not then we all are clueless lemmings.

wingedliberty · December 18, 2003 8:37PM

In the words of Spock. "Fascinating!"

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 9:47PM

Pretty strong words here. Are you sure you feel this way in the light of day?

Indeed sir!

I'll ask this.....What did you and all that participate in the realm of numismatics do before the grading companies existed? Yes, I do comprehend the AUTHENTICATION aspect of these "Professionals;" however, what I don't understand is the grading imbalance. Grading imbalance = money, hype and eventually SUCKER! I'd rather not fall into that criterion. The "Monster" companies are making a fortune along with the vendors of such items. The mere collector falls into this TRAP. JMHO...

route66 · December 18, 2003 10:26PM

The only people hurt by the grading companies are the crooked dealers who overgraded coins for decades. At least PCGS doesn't have an agenda when grading coins. And for you dealers who say learn to grade yourself. Easier said than done for collectors who only spend part of their time leisure on coins. NO fulltime dealer can grade accurately all the time. They just think they can. You get 3 big name dealers together and have them grade a bunch of coins; odds are, they won't agree on everything. Not mint state anyway. JMHO. Steve

LucyBop · December 18, 2003 11:08PM

<< Indeed sir!

I'll ask this.....What did you and all that participate in the realm of numismatics do before the grading companies existed? Yes, I do comprehend the AUTHENTICATION aspect of these "Professionals;" however, what I don't understand is the grading imbalance. Grading imbalance = money, hype and eventually SUCKER! I'd rather not fall into that criterion. The "Monster" companies are making a fortune along with the vendors of such items. The mere collector falls into this TRAP. JMHO >>

you opinion. I never fell into a trap smart guy.. and now I'm a sucker... Hey, guess I'm not as smart as you, but I've done extremely well, especially on re-sale... Don't ever get your coins slabb'd before you sell them. Thats being a sucker, I'm sure your raw coins upon resale will bring as much as any PCGs holder coin.... Us many mere collectors are suckers you know... Without the slab, we can't think like you.

Lakesammman · December 18, 2003 11:25PM

When I scan the U.S. Coin Forum listings, the first "poster" I look for is Shylocks. Keep those posts coming - I enjoy every one of them and usually learn something useful.

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 11:26PM

you opinion. I never fell into a trap smart guy.. and now I'm a sucker... Hey, guess I'm not as smart as you, but I've done extremely well, especially on re-sale... Don't ever get your coins slabb'd before you sell them. Thats being a sucker, I'm sure your raw coins upon resale will bring as much as any PCGs holder coin.... Us many mere collectors are suckers you know... Without the slab, we can't think like you.

I guess I failed to include MYSELF as a SUCKER. Precisely the point pertaining to my participation in this post! Yes, I sold ALLLLLLLL my raws and got HAMMERED! I jumped feet first w/o learning to swim into the plastics arena, and much to my dismay, I find myself floating belly-up as opposed to DOWN like many COLLECTORS will as they delve this plastics game.
Furthermore, I don't claim to be a SMART person. If I were, I wouldn't be posting as such now would I?

In addition, your doing "extremely well" on re-sale is commendable. Your savvy in this area has served you well.

Finally, stop taking what people say as derogatory toward you and 'lighten up' CAT, for this is a forum.....

MrEureka · December 18, 2003 11:26PM

While I agree that it is possible for an ICG coin to be properly graded, and perhaps it was here, the almighty $$$ rules around here.

Rick - Good morning! Haven't chatted in a while. Now, what are you babbling about?

EVillageProwler · December 18, 2003 11:27PM

Paul not to worry when you post on this forum experienced collectors always enjoy your comments. You and a handful of others are the type of collectors that keep people coming back for more information and enjoyment of the hobby. Your posts are always balanced and without regard to any personal motivation, exactly what this forum was meant to be. The majority of us can and have smoked out those who primarily post for their own personal aggrandizement and monetary gain.

Ditto.

Without any implication to the general accuracy of Paul's posts (which I've yet to question), I feel that his posts are dispassionate and without bias toward personal gain.

I do think, however, that some of the respondents of this thread have raised their ire for very little cause. And, some of this is fueled by a rush to judgement.

Regards,

EVP

Lakesammman · December 18, 2003 11:29PM

EVP:

Thanks for saying it better than I did.

LucyBop · December 18, 2003 11:34PM

<< Finally, stop taking what people say as derogatory toward you and 'lighten up' CAT, for this is a forum..... >>

Go buy a Kennedy!

razorface1027 · December 18, 2003 11:40PM

Go buy a Kennedy!

Okay!.....Oppppppps, wait a sec, that's right I forgot; due to my ignorance in the collecting arena and my haphazard submission to the gods of grading (won't mention any names), I'll soon be recipiant of a PR67 DCAM Kennedy, when all along my SMARTNESS was telling me they were going to achieve a 70.

Oh well, I live and I learn!........

CaptainRon · December 18, 2003 11:56PM

A friend of mine asked me what I was chuckling about. After explaing the thread, all he could say was "Sheesh all of this over a penny"

LucyBop · December 18, 2003 11:57PM

<< Sheesh all of this over a penny >>

so you just had to throw your one cent in....

yuk yuk....

LucyBop · December 19, 2003 12:01AM

btw, more shylock for me!

mintluster · December 19, 2003 12:07AM

This is why I love these webboards.
They really do provide a lot of knowledge, opinions, and entertainment.

elwood · December 19, 2003 12:44AM

Shylock

Keep up the good work!!!

This upgrading happens all the time and I think it's funny when the so-called big boys seem to get upset when it's made public.

It appears DHRC didn't appreciate it.

If it is a 65RD and the coin is priced accordingly then what's the big deal. As mentioned before you are buying the coin, not the holder.

Now, if it was actually a 63 or 64 in a 65 holder and was played with, to achieve that grade, then that's a different story.

People seem to get so bent out of shape when someones rips a coin in this business. Good job Dave!!
I wished I had the ability.

What if someone see's this coin in DHRC's inventory and says WOW that's a great coin and pays the $8,000.00. Gets it home cracks it out and submits it and it comes back 66RD. All of a sudden it's a POPTOP and is put in an auction and sells for $16,000.00. Now who was taken advantage of? I bet the guy/gal who bought it out of inventory would be bragging about where they got it and how they had doubled up and Cherry Picked David Hall.

geb209 · December 19, 2003 12:52AM

<< Now, if it was actually a 63 or 64 in a 65 holder and was played with, to achieve that grade, then that's a different story. >>

BINGO, or, alternatively, for some reason, the average joe couldnt get it into a 65 holder.

At the risk of getting kicked out of here...

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