Beautifully Toned Pop 1 Jefferson! Wow!

FrattLaw · December 18, 2003 4:44AM

I just came across this and had to share it --- 1963-D PCGS 66 Jeff -- Pop 1 Coin Wowzer!

I can see Nickels going sky high with the introduction of the new designs. Anyone have any ideas of what this coin might be worth!

Michael

TWQG · December 18, 2003 4:47AM

There's a discussion about this coin on the registry forum. Looks overgraded to me.

keets · December 18, 2003 4:48AM

looks overgraded and bid by a seller, not a buyer.

al h.

Russ · December 18, 2003 4:50AM

If that's an MS66, I've been getting screwed on my grades.

Russ, NCNE

jbsteven · December 18, 2003 4:51AM

anyone ask Mitch if the coin is his?

TWQG · December 18, 2003 4:53AM

<< anyone ask Mitch if the coin is his? >>

Bikingnut · December 18, 2003 4:54AM

There's a discussion about this coin on the registry forum. Looks overgraded to me

Ditto. How is that a 66 with that ding on Jefferson's cheek? If thats' a 66 I need to send my 43D back for a regrade, as it's clearly undergraded in it's 65 holder.

Russ · December 18, 2003 4:54AM

This one only went MS64:

Somebody was drunk when they graded the one in the auction.

Russ, NCNE

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 5:20AM

"looks overgraded and bid by a seller, not a buyer."

Hey Al - The only difference between my personal registered Registry sets (currently #1 in MS Wash Quarters, #2 in MS Kennedy Half Dollars, #7 in MS Roosevelts, #18 in Proof Lincolns and #41 in MS Lincoln Cents with several more sets to follow and many more upgrades likely to come to the existing sets) and many other sets Registered by the "true collectors" out there is the fact that for several years now, I have not sold my collections (in the case of Roosies, I have not even sold my doubles, triples or quadruples!!), while many of the "true collectors" have elected to take their profits and bail

So, the label "seller" may be an unfair overstatement.

As usual, I would be happy to discuss the subject nickel auction following the completion of the auction.

Wondercoin

P.S. Incidently, I have no problem selling a coin from any of my sets on occasion, especially where I am selling it to a dedicated collector of the series/prior customer of mine who truly wants to own it.

Darkhorse · December 18, 2003 5:22AM

What causes this toning on the nickles? I've never really seen a Canadian nickel have such toning.

keets · December 18, 2003 5:24AM

hey Mitch

so i take it you're bidding on the coin for yourself and not a client?? i notified another member when i saw this one listed, i know he's putting together a set of MS66 non-FS Jeffersons. i had no idea it was ever going to get this high. a link to you set, please. apologies if i spoke out of place.

al h.

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 5:36AM

Al: Obviously, I would have loved to own this coin for my personal collection of Jefferson nickels for a couple hundred dollars, as many others would have (addressing your comment of the price now being higher than some might have expected). But, I have registered right now (under my email address) for a good customer the greatest MS Jeff. nickel collection of MS 1938-1964 Jeffs ever assembled (currently the #1 set) and usually provide the customer the right of first refusal in a sense on most of the Jeffs I see on ebay that are of some interest.

Wondercoin

Russ · December 18, 2003 5:46AM

<< the greatest MS Jeff. nickel collection of MS 1938-1964 Jeffs ever assembled >>

Then I'm sure we can assume the coin at auction won't be added to it.

Russ, NCNE

Cam40 · December 18, 2003 6:00AM

It has that target toning i,ve seen on buffalo nickels...
How were they holdered to get that type of rainbow toning.

btw, wheres the pics with the nice digital camera you just got.

braddick · December 18, 2003 6:10AM

Very pretty Jefferson Mitch and worthy of the MS66 grade. Good luck with the auction.

MS68 · December 18, 2003 6:35AM

Russ- Though the surface preservation of your coin appears to be in the 66 to 67 catagory, the toning on your coin is questionable at best. I would not be surprised if you cracked the coin out and sent it back in that it would not bag for questionable toning on the next try. The 64 grade it received is in line with a net grade for that fact.
As for the 63-D with the marks on it, while the coin is a 65 at best in terms of the hits on it, the luster and toning are that of a monster gem coin. Considering that eye appeal constitutes a major portion of the composition of a grade, I see no problem with the assigned grade.

keets · December 18, 2003 6:35AM

hey Darkhorse

aren't Canadian Nickels pure Nickel? those Five Cent Pieces that are Silver/Copper, Zinc/Copper, plated steel or Copper/Nickel might tone to some degree, but the 100% Nickel Five-Cent Pieces probably won't.

on the other hand, U.S Nickels and all Copper/Nickel clads tone like this as a result of the copper.

al h.

Russ · December 18, 2003 6:41AM

<< Russ- Though the surface preservation of your coin appears to be in the 66 to 67 catagory, the toning on your coin is questionable at best. >>

I could see where you might think that if you don't know the origin of the toning.

<< The 64 grade it received is in line with a net grade for that fact. >>

Nope. The coin is a technical MS64 and correctly graded. It has a large scratch running vertically through his upper forehead near the hairline.

Russ, NCNE

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 6:43AM

"Then I'm sure we can assume the coin at auction won't be added to it."

Of course, this coin would not fit into the #1 collection. This coin in gem FS (as is in the #1 set) is a rarity in the Jeff series. This coin basically does not "come" gem FS other than on rare occasion. But, many collectors do enjoy neat back up coins such as pretty MS68 quality Roosies without FB or monster color Franklins even with FBL. This nickel is interesting and certainly the conversation piece, as seen by this thread

As MS68 stated, grading INCLUDES eye appeal. In general, I have found a big mistake collectors often make is to micro-grade a coin. They get too busy "counting marks" and essentially fail to see the "forest through the trees". Look at this coin as you might look at your wife's body - don't get hung up on the small blemishes - take a step back and look at the big picture

Wondercoin

stman · December 18, 2003 7:01AM

<< As MS68 stated, grading INCLUDES eye appeal. In general, I have found a big mistake collectors often make is to micro-grade a coin. They get too busy "counting marks" and essentially fail to see the "forest through the trees". Look at this coin as you might look at your wife's body - don't get hung up on the small blemishes - take a step back and look at the big picture >>

True and I can agree to a certain extent. And the only thing I have to add to this nice discussion is.... Yes some of us collectors will be tough grumpy technical graders. One reason being that when we go to sell some of these beauties that have been bumped up for color and eye-appeal.... all of a sudden many dealers forgot the "forest through the trees" and want to lowball a buy price saying it doesn't meet the assigned grade because of the hits on the coin. I'm not doing any slamming here just stating some facts.

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 7:12AM

"all of a sudden many dealers forgot the "forest through the trees"

Stutman - Why discriminate? From reading this thread, most collectors will rip the coin apart perhaps even more aggressively for the same reasons. But, the great news for collectors is they can post the coin to ebay and now get the whole country clammoring for the specimen and pull in a bid of $500+ with the greatest of ease, assuming the coin is worth it.

Wondercoin

stman · December 18, 2003 7:31AM

<< Stutman >>

Is that my new name?

I been called worse, but I don't know the meaning of that one.

silverandvinyl · December 18, 2003 7:32AM

It sure looks over graded to me also.Look at this one and compare

relayer · December 18, 2003 7:35AM

<< The 64 grade it received is in line with a net grade for that fact. >>

So you are saying that instead of a BB PCGS will just drop a point or two?

silverandvinyl · December 18, 2003 7:35AM

I forgot to mention the 50d is aPCGSms65

pontiacinf · December 18, 2003 7:38AM

63-d is known for a nappy mushy strike

thats all I will say at this point
ask me again after auction

baccaruda · December 18, 2003 7:41AM

Beautiful coin, but if that's an MS66, then I REALLY need to cross all of my ANACS 65s, 66s to PCGS 68s, 69s.

MS68 · December 18, 2003 8:01AM

Russ- That is why I used the word APPEARS in my statement about your coin. I can not and know of no one that can grade coins from a looking at a scan. Anyone that believes they can is deluding themselves. I only ventured to guess at why your coin was graded 64. The color patterns do not look very natural to me from the scan but as you state, may look very acceptable when seen in person. Why do you put a scan of a coin up for scrutiny that has a hidden scratch on it and ask us why it is not graded as high as the other coin?
Stman- I will take a coin with great eye appeal and a few marks all day over a technically perfect ugly coin. Stop by my table at the FUN show (table # 313) and I will show you some of my color commems with monster eye appeal and too many hits that you can rip apart to your hearts content but I will still love all the same.

LAWMAN · December 18, 2003 8:08AM

I think the coin is either overgraded or Jefferson cut himself shaving a few times. Agree though that Jeff nickels are poised for a jump. Roosies, definitely. Look at the pricing that is coming out on the FB's now. Yoo cheap vs. rarity.

Russ · December 18, 2003 8:11AM

<< Why do you put a scan of a coin up for scrutiny that has a hidden scratch on it and ask us why it is not graded as high as the other coin? >>

The scratch isn't hidden, it's clearly visible in the image. I didn't ask why it was not graded as high as the one in the auction. I merely noted that it was graded MS64 and provided it as a comparison since the one in the auction is also severely dinged up.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut · December 18, 2003 8:11AM

<< What causes this toning on the nickles? I've never really seen a Canadian nickel have such toning. >>

Mehrig albums will do it... I have a matched album, BU, 1938-1961 complete

wondercoin · December 18, 2003 8:16AM

"I merely noted that it was graded MS64 and provided it as a comparison since the one in the auction is also severely dinged up."

With one notable difference - the one in the auction is worth at least $500, while the coin you displayed is worth about $15 to me due to the questionable color and lack of eye appeal. And, I am not saying you disagree

Wondercoin

P.S. You also set up your coin with your opening comment:

"If that's an MS66, I've been getting screwed on my grades."

Darkhorse · December 18, 2003 8:18AM

<< 

<< What causes this toning on the nickles? I've never really seen a Canadian nickel have such toning. >>

Mehrig albums will do it... I have a matched album, BU, 1938-1961 complete

>>

thanks

SeattleSlammer · December 18, 2003 8:49AM

Look at this coin as you might look at your wife's body - don't get hung up on the small blemishes - take a step back and look at the big picture >>

I think somebody needs to get out more.

coinkat · December 18, 2003 10:37AM

While I am not a Jefferson expert, I will offer some comments from the cheap seats... and it is okay to slam, disagree and be critical of these views.

From what I have seen, Jeffersons are market graded and slightly different standards are applied depending on the dates. The 1938-45 dates face the toughest standards. I attribute this partially to the quality and quantity of most of these dates... perhaps with exception of the 44-s and 45-s and rare varieties. The standards begin to change in 1946 and can range depending upon the mint. There is a significant issue with quality struck coins... the reverse of many dates such as the 51-s, 52-s and 53-s are just awful... Monticello can be missing all the steps and the pillars are faint.

Later dates from 1952 forward have serious issues ranging from the quality of the strikes, the planchet and the careless handling at the mint. Personally, I think these dates get the benefit of market grading because they are of a lower quality than pre 1945 dates... This thread seems to reflect this... if this were a 1938-d it would not be MS66... perhaps it would not even be MS 65. However, because this is a date that always looks like something that was dropped down the garbage disposal, it was graded based on eye appeal. I like the coin...is it worthy of MS66? It does if it is compared to the quality of what was produced in the early 1960s. If you look at the series as a whole and compare it to a 1943-d which exists in fairly large quantities in MS66 and higher, it is an embarrassment. Well struck quality Jeffersons with blazing lustre with few marks from 1952-64 with afew exceptions are far more difficult to get than most collectors realize.

Lets put aside the issue of Full Steps for a moment... the problem with this series is that the quality is inconsistent and the day will come when perhaps Full Steps will not be the most critical factor in evaluating the state of preservation for this series. Why? Because certain dates can either have 5 Full Steps or be close and have other weakness in the details of Monticello. Which would be preferable?

Just some thoughts from the cheap seats...

Schmitz7 · December 18, 2003 11:21AM

I know from personal experience in assembling several sets of Jefferson's in the past that the 1963-D is a difficult coin in high grades. This coin often comes with dull or minimal luster and is tough with a nice strike. That being said, although I cannot tell from the scan if the coin warrants a MS66 grade, I will say that I can read. The PCGS grading book states that an MS66 coin exhibits the following:

There may be several noticeable, but very minor defects made up for by the rest of the coins superbness.

The categories assessed are marks, strike, luster, and eye appeal.

Therefore the strike, luster, and eye appeal got this coin the grade and offset the marks.

I personally passed on bidding on this one only because the color looked odd to me, but that is just my opinion. I'm happy with my MS65 that has a clean cheek, but lacks eye appeal.

Tim Schmitz

eagle7 · December 18, 2003 12:10PM

I think we are missing another aspect of this particular coin, the marketing aspect. If this coin were being sold by a card dealer and the photo was a terrible scan, would it bring moon money? Kudos to the folks who are getting this price, but I myself think there are better deals out there. JMHO.

Ronyahski · December 18, 2003 12:15PM

I know it is only a pic on a computer, and you need to see a coin in person in order to make a determination, caveat, caveat, etc., etc, but to me the coin looks AT.

stman · December 18, 2003 12:23PM

<< Stman- I will take a coin with great eye appeal and a few marks all day over a technically perfect ugly coin >>

I try to find coins that meet the assigned grade as well as great eye-appeal. Tough to do these days, and once in a while I make an exception. Thanks for the invite to your table at fun. Unfortunately I will not be able to attend this show.

My point was I see many dealers saying buy the eye-appeal, and the heck with the marks, but when the table is turned they indeed care about those marks. This is my opinion and what I have witnessed first hand and I'm sticking to it.

MS68 · December 18, 2003 12:28PM

stman- You show me a coin with great eye appeal and a technically accurate grade and I will show you an upgrade candidate.

I like to buy those too.

stman · December 18, 2003 12:34PM

ms68, I guess I should upgrade a few that I have. I just like proper grades in their correct holder that's all.
I know I have to pay the premium for these, and I do. But I just like to determine what it's worth in the correct holder and not the grading services.

MS68 · December 18, 2003 12:44PM

stman- I try to determine what the coin is worth OUT of a holder and then look to see that the grade on the holder is at or below the one I would give it. But enough of giving my secrets away. The competition is tough enough already.

stman · December 18, 2003 12:48PM

ms68, LOL, I believe we're on the same page here.

baccaruda · December 18, 2003 12:55PM

I can't image coins like Russ, but if the nickel he shows is "questionable", then I have about 5-6 in my toned nickel Dansco with EXACTLY the same type of "questionable color" - most from different sources that I paid no premium for. There's nothing questionable about that color.

DennisH · December 18, 2003 12:57PM

Just returned home from a 3-day business trip to Arizona. When I left I was high bidder on this coin, and was prepared to lose my mind and eventually bid slightly over $100 if necessary.

I'm the crazy guy with the Registry Jefferson set with ZERO full-step coins, so a pop 1/0 MS66 appealed to me in a huge way. The color was only a bonus, but that's all.

So I come back home, fire up eBay, see the bidding is over $500... and move on. Good luck to the new owner.

Beautifully Toned Pop 1 Jefferson! Wow!

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