Tonight's example of Grading Guarantee Return to Come...

RGL · December 17, 2003 10:37AM

Granted, as a 1950 PR-66 DCAM Jeff it's a 6/6 coin with only 14 coins in all grades of DCAM...and, this indeed may make the DCAM.

But for a 66 and a $2,650 BIN at Heritage, I'd prefer a tad fewer jaw hits and pits ... blow up the photos and take a look at the jaw. The most grossly overgraded "superior" Jeff I have ever seen in PCGS plastic. With that jaw, this coin is 63/64 tops. Better get this mistake back, homerun...

Heritage link (Edited to add: Heritage site slow and funky tonight...link may not always come up)

Placid · December 17, 2003 10:41AM

ElectricEye · December 17, 2003 10:41AM

wow

DHeath · December 17, 2003 12:16PM

I'm sure someone will argue that the strike was too weak to fill the die (it shouldn't be, it's a proof). I'd be pretty disappointed if I got that jewel in the mail.

coppercoins · December 17, 2003 12:38PM

That's no 66...not even on a good day. Another case of slab overgrading.

techeff · December 17, 2003 12:42PM

JRocco · December 17, 2003 1:32PM

Another great example of buying the coin NOT the holder!

Catch22 · December 17, 2003 2:13PM

Could be on the holder...hard to tell.

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2003 2:54PM

Too many tequila shots the night before for that grader.

XpipedreamR · December 17, 2003 3:13PM

<< Could be on the holder...hard to tell. >>

If you go close up you can tall it's definitely not on the holder.

Either way, it's not like the marks are in focal areas of the obverse, anyway.

Placid · December 17, 2003 5:11PM

1950 PR 66 PCGS. Blazing, white luster.
No mention of the face

ColonialCoinUnion · December 17, 2003 8:02PM

I still believe the marks in question are on the holder -

Placid · December 17, 2003 9:21PM

keets · December 17, 2003 9:39PM

I'm sure someone will argue that the strike was too weak to fill the die

hey Don

that someone would be me!!! the catch 22 being that if the strike was weak it should have held the grade back. if you have a nickel, look at it and read my next paragraph.

if the strike was indeed full, the entire sixth step would be clearly visible. the obverse area opposite the steps is the cheekbone, just below and to the right of the eye. there is an easily seen dip and then the high cheek/jawline which is the area in question. no doubt, metal has to flow to those two deeper portions of the die and it always reaches the jawline last on the obverse and the step area last on the reverse. what all that means to me is that planchet voids in those areas are forgiven to a certain extent.

looking at the Heritage coin, it appears to me "as struck" and not having post-strike contact marks. still, i think PR66 is a stretch. i'd want to see a $2500 purchase up-close-and-personal, i'm funny that way.

but all things considered it's a gem for the date.

al h.

ANACONDA · December 17, 2003 10:04PM

This is indeed a jargon filled hobby:

"Granted, as a 1950 PR-66 DCAM Jeff it's a 6/6 coin with only 14 coins in all grades of DCAM...and, this indeed may make the DCAM.

But for a 66 and a $2,650 BIN at Heritage, I'd prefer a tad fewer jaw hits and pits ... blow up the photos and take a look at the jaw. The most grossly overgraded "superior" Jeff I have ever seen in PCGS plastic. With that jaw, this coin is 63/64 tops. Better get this mistake back, homerun..."

WorldTypeSet · December 17, 2003 10:04PM

I still believe the marks in question are on the holder

It looks that way to me too.

dorkkarl · December 17, 2003 10:05PM

<< I still believe the marks in question are on the holder >>

huh? it's just a coincidence that the plethora of marks on the well-known high points of jeff's??? & what time does santy claus come to your house?

besides that doesn't look dcam either.

the coin's a blatant mistake. i happen to believe that pcgs doesn't make a lot of mistakes on moderns like this, but when you grade a billion coins a day, cr@p like this is gonna slip thorugh.

K S

LanLord · December 17, 2003 11:19PM

Monticello isn't looking all that spiffy either, a couple dings on that too.

ColonialCoinUnion · December 17, 2003 11:26PM

<< 

<< I still believe the marks in question are on the holder >>

huh? it's just a coincidence that the plethora of marks on the well-known high points of jeff's??? & what time does santy claus come to your house?

besides that doesn't look dcam either.

the coin's a blatant mistake. i happen to believe that pcgs doesn't make a lot of mistakes on moderns like this, but when you grade a billion coins a day, cr@p like this is gonna slip thorugh.

K S >>

KS - I really can't tell from the scan but, yes, I do I believe the marks are on the holder. If you can definitively tell that they are on the coin, you must have significantly better vision than I do, which will give you a huge advantage when bidding on modern coins over the internet.

CarlWohlforth · December 17, 2003 11:57PM

I'd like to own that coin at some price. A couple grand might be too much for me but I still like that coin. It is a tough date for heavy cameo contrast. Proof Jefferson nickels usually have some pits on the jaw as struck. I would like that coin better if it were in a 65 holder but imagine it could deserve the DCAM designation. Believe me I would really enjoy comparing this to the 1950 in my collection as I've always believed my Cameo deserved DCAM.

It doesn't look like scratches in the plastic holder to me. They have the same sharp focus as the portrait.

Gilbert · December 18, 2003 12:34AM

Hey CarlW,

I agree that Jeffs usually have some pits in the area under examination, and I fully expected to use that justification - until I blew that image up. That definitely looks like poststrike damage to me. I could be wrong but it sure doesn't seem to me that a "rolled planchet, and for a proof" would have such deep and concentrated gouges in the one area. Add to that the area in question is neither frosted, mirrored or polished; looks like roll rub on top of a typically troubled (pitted or rough when not fully struck) area.

Hardly what SHOULD be called PR66, in my book.

khayse · December 18, 2003 12:51AM

Definitely on the coin and not the holder.

-KHayse

jeffnpcb · December 18, 2003 1:07AM

The truncation shows the same visible hits as the jaw line! It's not the holder as you can see some scoring and smears on the holder as it moves to the truncation. They are not the same marks or the pattern as on the coin!

CarlWohlforth · December 18, 2003 2:39AM

The pits do look pretty severe. If they were produced after the coin was minted then the grade is even further off.

clackamas · December 18, 2003 3:46AM

The marks look "as struck" to me however I always get dinged for these anyway. Looks like the must have bumped it for something else or made a mistake.

Spinynorman · December 18, 2003 4:27AM

<<

>>

That sure looks like typical die burn to me.

(in case it's only a Canadian term...)

DIE BURN
- A break (slight roughness) in the surface of a coin at its high points. Appears at first to be a form of wear but in fact is the result of an insufficient strike or poor planchet so the resulting coin fails to be completely struck. Commonly seen in the George VI series, particularly with the silver coins.

RGL · December 18, 2003 11:28AM

Whoa, thanks for all the input guys. Hate to disagree with some, but if you think those marks on the slab, I have a 1933 St. Gaudens I'd love to sell you. And, further FYI, I pointed this coin out in a PM to homerunhall and he indeed looked it over and responded to my query. It is nice to know a Forum member can get a personal reply from the man at the top. However, as it was in the form of a PM, I will not disclose David's response ...

mnmcoin · December 18, 2003 11:53AM

I personally believe those marks are as struck. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of proof/cameo Jeffs with that pitting going on most all in the mint cellophane. I would have to see the coin in person to see if the pitting knocks it from a 66. Marks like this tend to be blown up and look rather large in a pic, when in reality are not very major at all. I would also think that the dcam nature of this coin add tremendously to the eye appeal of the coin and thus boosting the grade.

morris <><

dorkkarl · December 18, 2003 8:46PM

KS - I really can't tell from the scan but, yes, I do I believe the marks are on the holder. If you can definitively tell that they are on the coin, you must have significantly better vision than I do, which will give you a huge advantage when bidding on modern coins over the internet. >>

the heck w/ that, i do NOT bid on internet coins based on grade, period. but your saying it's a complete & utter coincidence that the marks on the "slab" just happen by some amazing twist of fate to be localized exactly where the high points are on the coin, & in exactly the pattern you'd expect the marks to look on the coin, & apparently in the exact relief of how you'd expect those dings.

K S

pontiacinf · December 18, 2003 9:31PM

comeon you clowns...its not the slab..someone shaved jeffery with sandpaper

Id be all over heritage if i got that in the mail, but id never buy a coin that price without holding in my hand first.

GET DAT BABY BACK DAVE

pontiacinf · December 18, 2003 9:33PM

and you guys may want to listen to al more closely...Ive learned so much about jeffs from him I almost believe he's schlag in a costume

eagle7 · December 18, 2003 9:47PM

I agree completely with MNM. Its a good thing PCGS or NGC do not grade coins from digital photographs or scans but do so in person. The coin MUST be looked at in person to establish a grade. I think the coin will look much better in your hand than it does in those scan blow ups. Am I saying that dogs do not exist in PCGS holders? No I am not. I just dont think you can know that until you look at it in person.

DHeath · December 18, 2003 10:35PM

The coin MUST be looked at in person to establish a grade.

Certainly that is true. Al, you may be right. The thing is, that is a pretty important coin. It would appear to be a compromise coin that will likely sell for big numbers. Maybe PCGS saw the coin as an 8, and bumped it two points for an incomplete strike, maybe the chatter doesn't look bad in hand etc etc etc. Since I'm not examining the coin in person, I'll reserve comment about the appropriateness of the grade. Personally, I'd spend my money on a coin I liked better, like Carl's.

Tonight's example of Grading Guarantee Return to Come...

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