Holiday Tale for you......includes Fraud? Scams? International Intrigue and Royalty!!!!

ScarsdaleCoin · December 7, 2003 10:12PM

OK folks....maybe I am wound up way too tight....but I auctioned an item on ebay which is a nice Silver Set and it sold for almost $500.....so far so good....only problem the winner is from Hong Kong (my auctions state no overseas), the winner had emailed me early to ask if he could bid....I asked him to please NOT....and now he has a US address to ship to, using unconfirmed paypal....

So if you have 5-10 minutes and want a good bestselling read....take a look below and let me know if you think this is real or fake?????

Also let me know what you would do? I will keep updating as things progress...... Jon

"Andrew S. Yuen" <asyuen@netvigator.com> wrote: Dear Jon,

I am interested in bidding for the above captioned item. I live in Hong Kong and would like to have the lot sent by courier to Hong Kong if I am successful. I can pay by PayPal or credit card direct and will of course be responsible for the freight cost to Hong Kong plus any extra handling fee. Thank you for your kind consideration.

Kind regards,
Andrew Yuen

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:39:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scarsdale Coin Jon Lerner" <coinhelp@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: eBay Auction item #2207051737
To: "Andrew S. Yuen" <asyuen@netvigator.com>

I would rather you not bid...thank you...

"From the office of The Most Hon. Baron Andrew S. Yuen of Aveley, Lord of Cawstone Hall" <asyuenwm@netvigator.com> wrote:
Dear Mr. Lerner,

Unfortunately, we have already initiated the bidding process before we received your reply. In fact, I think Baron Yuen has actually won the bid at $493.88. Would you consider shipping the parcel to Hong Kong? If so, please find below credit card and address information of Baron Yuen for your perusal.

Card Type: American Express Centurion Card
Card Holder: Andrew S Yuen
Card No.: xxxxx (Jon Note I have blanked this out)
Exp. Date: XXXXX (this too)
Billing Address: 2-12 Kwai Fat Road, 11-A, Kwai Chung, N.T., Hong Kong

Please ship the parcel to:
Baron Andrew Yuen of Aveley
30 Kennedy Road
8-F, Yale Lodge
Mid Levels
Hong Kong

Please feel free to send the parcel by any courier service such as Federal Express, UPS or DHL and charge the freight cost and any other additional handling fees to Baron Yuen's credit card. Otherwise, you may advise us the total cost and we can arrange for payment through PayPal. I did notice from the fine prints of your posting that we should double the postage for the US to ship overseas. However, I doubt very much if this is sufficient. In any case, I think you can just call up Federal Express and they can give you an estimate over the phone.

We do appreciate the extra effort you have to put in to conclude this deal and we look forward to doing more business with you in the future.

With kind regards,
Vivien Au-Yeung
Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 04:57:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scarsdale Coin Jon Lerner" <coinhelp@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: eBay Auction item #2207051737
To: "From the office of The Most Hon. Baron Andrew S. Yuen of Aveley, Lord of Cawstone Hall" <asyuenwm@netvigator.com>

I do not accept credit cards.... the auction stated we do not ship out of country!

Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Please send me total amount for item #2207051737, RARE FRANKLIN MINT SET SCULPTORS MEDALS

Dear Mr. Lerner,

I trust that my secretary has given you my credit card information for payment. However, if you so prefer, I can also pay by PayPal. If you give me your address, perhaps I can arrange for a courier service to pick up the parcel for shipment. DHL and FedEx have pick up service as long as your address is not too remote. I have an account with them both. In that case, please let me know how much you charge for packing the item for shipment.

I am sorry for the inconvenience caused.

best regards,
Andrew Yuen

Never mind. I have paid through Paypal and have given you an address in Utah. I trust that shipping to a US address is manageable for you. If you have any more questions, please get back to me or my secretary. I would appreciate if you would notify me when the parcel is sent out.

Andrew Yuen

Jon Lerner wrote:

I do not believe paypal will cover me for out of country ...using a credit card....to many frauds.....I do not see how we can complete this transaction. You should not have bid, it was in my auction that we do not ship out of country.....

IF YOU READ THE FINE PRINT.....

ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS!

----- Original Message -----
From: asyuen@netvigator.com
To: immagic@msn.com
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: Item #2207051737 - Notification of an Instant Purchase Payment Received from asyuen asyuen@netvigator.com

Dear Scarsdale Coin,

This email confirms that you have received a $503.88 USD from asyuen

Dear Mr. Lerner,

Baron Yuen is most annoyed by the tone of your message quoted below and request that you retract the phrase "you scammers" immediately.

Meanwhile, we reserve the right to hold you responsible for any consequence caused by such false accusation.

Without prejudice,
Vivien Au-Yeung
Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley

Dear Mr. Lerner,

I am in receipt of your last two messages and cannot help but begin to get a bit upset and frustrated, not so much with the situation, but with your attitude. I really do not appreciate the tone of your emails allegedly accusing me of somehow cheating you in this deal. While I am not a native English speaker, I can well understand the meaning of "fraud" and the degrading implication of the words "you scammers"! However, if you would care to analyse the situation objectively, you would notice that I have been trying to resolve the problem amicably and have even paid you before I got a confirmation that you would ship the item out. Admittedly, I have made a mistake by not getting your agreement that you would ship overseas before I placed my bid. However, you have not been too professional in handling your business either. The fine print of your listing is quite misleading and I quote: "If you want to bid from outside US you MUST USE PAYPAL FOR PAYMENT! ALSO YOU MUST DOUBLE THE STATED SHIPPING COSTS". I have checked with two of my legal advisors and they both agreed that with such a statement, you have made an offer to overseas buyers. I could have just made payment with PayPal and include $20 for postage. You are then obligated to ship me the item to wherever there is postage service. Meanwhile, I have offered to pay you extra for handling and even suggested that I arrange for the courier service to pick up the parcel to save you the gasoline cost of "$1.75 bucks/gallon to get to the post office".

Mr. Lerner, in the 25 years that I have been dealing in the business world, I have not once been called less than honourable. While I am quite new to this eBay business, I would suggest you to check the feedback left by other sellers for me. I am a Justice of Peace in Hong Kong and have been knighted by HM the Queen of England. I have also received a peerage from the Royal Household and am among the youngest to receive a Barony for someone who is not born blue blooded. I dare say that I am proud of my reputation and would do whatever within my means to protect it from any false accusation.

So far, I have made a few constructive suggestions as to how we can conclude this transaction but I have yet to hear one from your side. I look forward to hearing any proposal that you may have as to how we may resolve this matter. Since I have given you the benefit of the doubt and paid for the set already, I think I deserve a more co-operative attitude.

Meanwhile, if you intend to continue holding the stand that I am planning some conniving scheme to cheat you, I have my legal team on standby already; but I doubt this is going to do either one of us any good.

Without prejudice,
Andrew Yuen

goose3 · December 7, 2003 10:18PM

Sounds like a Clankeye Tale.

Screw him. Refuse the Paypal money, request your final value fees, and block him and probably get a neg

or...

do like Mad Marty says.

Legal team standing by.........LOL!!!!!!!!!! Ok SIR Yuen!! LOL

MadMarty · December 7, 2003 10:18PM

What I would do is what I do with a customer in China, He sends CASH via registered mail to me. I ship him the goods insured. We have done this 3 or 4 times now and have not had a problem. Tell him to send CASH via registered mail and you'll ship it where ever he wants. Than NO PROBLEM!

kranky · December 7, 2003 10:21PM

No sense getting into a war of words with this gentleman, he clearly relishes it. I would decline the Paypal payment he sent, and send him a note like this:

Dear Baron Yuen,
I regret that you felt I had personally insulted you. I had no intention of doing so.

I have returned your Paypal payment as I am unable ship to an unconfirmed Paypal address. I believe this is the solution to our dilemma as otherwise I would be forced to delay shipment for six months if I was required to ship to an unconfirmed address.

Thank you for pointing out the confusing wording in my auction and I will clarify it in future auctions.

Please give my best to your assistant Vivien.

Best regards,
etc.

toyonakataro · December 7, 2003 10:35PM

auction link

Your description is confusing.

Sincerely
Taro

CarlWohlforth · December 7, 2003 10:39PM

I tried a quick search for Knights and Barons and didn't find anything conclusive.

Why not ship to an unconfirmed PayPal address? I do that all the time. It is difficult to confirm a PO box for example.

You have the money. Why not ship?

I know you have stated you won't ship internationally so you probably want to stick to your guns. However I see no reason to refuse to ship if the buyer pays for the extra costs and takes resonsibility for any problems. You keep the money and the proof of shipping... Anyway it is what I would do.

ScarsdaleCoin · December 7, 2003 10:40PM

Kranky I like what you wrote....
I did write to him this morning that he could send me cash or US Postal Money Order...but I am leaning towards what Kranky wrote....

PS: I should add...if you look at his feedback and recent buys.....all past week high value bullion type items....I am afraid many people are going to lose some money...

CarlWohlforth · December 7, 2003 10:41PM

Thanks for the link Taro. I agree the fine print is all run together and hard to understand. Except for the all caps part that appears to be calling me a scammer

ScarsdaleCoin · December 7, 2003 10:49PM

CarlWohlforth

if you ship to an unconfirmed address using paypal and they are using a stolen credit card....wait a few weeks and you will get a nice note from paypal saying that they are taking the money back....you have no protection against that since you did not ship to a confirmed address.....that is rule #1 using paypal....only ship to a confirmed address....rule #1 cost me several hundred dollars of silver 10oz bars few years back...

sinin1 · December 7, 2003 10:49PM

I would apologize and suggest four possible solutions

1) have them work with PAYPAL to get that address verified

2) have them send you US cash

3) have them give you a US contact for you to complete transaction with (then they could work with that guy)

4) cancel transaction

there are many very astute business people in that area of the world, and frequently they try hard to get something they really want

who knows - maybe if it works out, they may use you as a finder for their US purchases and you could pull a cut out of every transaction

just because you are leary, does not make them scammers or fraud mongers
If US english is their second language, I could understand why they did not get through your 1200 word disclaimer (FINE PRINT) on your policys

ScarsdaleCoin · December 7, 2003 11:43PM

well I tried Kranky's advice and now look at the latest round....

I replied with.... If you wish to send Cash payment via Registered Mail that would be acceptable and then you can arrange pickup after.......

Dear Mr. Lerner,

Baron Yuen is going to be out of town for a few days but he has asked me to try to settle the dispute with you. If you prefer to have the money wired to your account, please provide me with your bank details and I will take care of it tomorrow. Would you consider shipping to Hong Kong after you receive our transfer? As pointed out before, we do not mind paying you extra for the freight and handling. It's just that Baron Yuen is purchasing the set as a Christmas gift for a friend, and he would like to receive it before Christmas. If you like, we can arrange for the courier to pick up the parcel after you confirm receipt of our payment. We are relatively new to this eBay business and apologize for any inconenience caused. However, plesae rest assured that we have every intention to honour our bid. I have also just found out what it means by a confirmed address (i.e. billing address of the credit card used). If you so prefer, we can pay again by PayPal and specify a confirmed address. But then, it is still an address in Hong Kong. Please just let me have your preference and I will try to take care of it accordingly.

Best regards,
Vivien Au-Yeung
Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley

Jon Lerner wrote:

Dear Baron Yuen,
I regret that you felt I had personally insulted you. I had no intention of doing so.

I have returned your Paypal payment as I am unable ship to an unconfirmed Paypal address. I believe this is the solution to our dilemma as otherwise I would be forced to delay shipment for six months if I was required to ship to an unconfirmed address.

Thank you for pointing out the confusing wording in my auction and I will clarify it in future auctions.

Please give my best to your assistant Vivien.

Best regards,
Jon Lerner

wayneme · December 7, 2003 11:53PM

my two cents cash cashiers check or money order after they clear i send the item not untill his choice his time frame
then wait till if clears or have a number you can call if its a bank check run it on google to be sure its a bank their you go

kranky · December 7, 2003 11:54PM

If they wire the money, does that solve the problem? I'd ask the bank if there is any way the transaction can be reversed.

Bikingnut · December 8, 2003 12:31AM

While I am not a native English speaker, I can well understand the meaning of "fraud" and the degrading implication of the words "you scammers"! He uses pretty good grammer for someone who is not a native English speaker.

"If you want to bid from outside US you MUST USE PAYPAL FOR PAYMENT! ALSO YOU MUST DOUBLE THE STATED SHIPPING COSTS". If your auction does state this, then you are inviting bids from outside the country. If not, then I don't think you are under any obligation to honer his bid. JMO

BattersUp · December 8, 2003 12:38AM

You know, for english not being his 1st language, he uses it better than I do. My opinion, Cash only, a MO can be filed as "lost" so when you cah it, its no good. I quit selling out of the US. DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR BANK ACCOUNT. For all the work they put into threatening you, they could have already shipped you the cash.

kranky · December 8, 2003 12:56AM

I thought it was possible to have a bank account flagged so it will only do incoming wire transfers, not outgoing.

tlhoy · December 8, 2003 1:08AM

2-12 Kwai Fat Road, 11-A, Kwai Chung, N.T., Hong Kong

Baron Andrew Yuen of Aveley
30 Kennedy Road
8-F, Yale Lodge
Mid Levels
Hong Kong

I ran both addresses through the post office (no zip code needed) and both show as NO SUCH ADDRESS
Aveley UK ?
Glenn

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 1:16AM

Well interesting enough, I heard from one other ebayer who did ship to him a set of medals.....I appreciate all the Sherlock Holmes type looking.....I agree if he is a Judge or Baron etc.... you would think that something would pop up on him........ I ran a google search for his shipping address and it is a postal drop office type building in Hong Kong..... he gave me a new shipping address in the US which belongs to a mfg of sporting equipment....dont know what the connection is there......all in all quite strange.....I really think in a few weeks a lot of people are going to be unhappy about losing coins.....I also agree for someone not from the US is English is very very good...too good...well if anyone else figures something....let me know....Jon

PS: yes we are removing future auctions any mention of shipping overseas for double shipping.....
I will not deal with overseas anymore .....

PPS: If I gave him bank info...do you think he could take money out somehow????

Cockney · December 8, 2003 1:20AM

He's the Baron of a place that DOES NOT EXIST....There is no Aveley......At least not in Britain

CarlWohlforth · December 8, 2003 1:23AM

I will learn from your previous experience and will seriously consider not shipping to unconfirmed PayPal addresses.

First I will get my own PayPal PO Address confirmed

I wish you the best on this one!

Cockney · December 8, 2003 1:23AM

Coorect that there is a little place called Aveley in Essex..

mgoodm3 · December 8, 2003 1:34AM

So, how does a Chinese guy become the Baron of a little place in Essex?

gemtone65 · December 8, 2003 1:34AM

I do not believe a word this fellow says. He sounds very much like the Nigerian scam letter I get every week or so from another high offical from that country who wants my bank acount number so he can deposit his thefts. I suspect that he'll take your merchandise, but that he would love to have your bank account number.

These scammers have their routine down pretty good. They have back-up plans. And they begin very courteously. Then they become indignant when you begin to question them -- as if there is any basis to trust them. It's tempting to debate with them, but the best practice is to simply ignore them whenever possible.

Cockney · December 8, 2003 1:36AM

I just searched Burkes Peerage, there is no such title or person registered. It is possible for a Hong Kong resident to recieve a peerage, although highly unusual..(Hong Kong is no longer British).........Bottom line is..............ITS A SCAM

geb209 · December 8, 2003 1:37AM

<< <i>He gave me a new shipping address in the US which belongs to a mfg of sporting equipment....dont know what the connection is there......all in all quite strange..... >>

Why dont we call them up and ask them? Pm me the name and shipping address (and phone number if you have it) and I'll do it. LOL, love to hear what they'll say.

wayneme · December 8, 2003 1:37AM

OK on Google
you did the Math now tell him it's a CASH deal Period send the money or take a hike

mgoodm3 · December 8, 2003 1:39AM

Also, by chance did you check the headers on the Emails to see if you can ID where they came from, it's sometimes enlightening.

wayneme · December 8, 2003 1:42AM

This is not a hard deal nicely but tell him you can't id him you'll need cash to complete the deal no big deal nicely blast him move on
relist the item your time frame give him a week or so that's it

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 1:51AM

the address that he wanted me to ship to was

Please ship to the following address:

c/o Sports Instruments USA
2064 Prospector Ave.
Suite 201
Park City, Ut. 84060

on the headers...I use MSN...not sure how to do that?????

Bubblehead · December 8, 2003 1:58AM

This continung saga has made for some swell reading, with my first cup of coffee, this morning... Keep it coming!

mgoodm3 · December 8, 2003 2:00AM

If MSN is anything like outlook express. right-click on the email (not the text portion, the upper window that shows the titlea and source). go to properties, there will be "message source" button. Copy the text in that and someone here can probably tell you something about it.

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 2:06AM

the phone number for Sports Instruments is 435-658-5400

when I called I got a machine asking if I wanted Bob, Bill or George......I wonder if someone who works there perhaps in shipping would take the item.... the Sports Instrument connection is a very interesting plot in this......

spoon · December 8, 2003 2:47AM

I don't know why this had to stretch out so long. If you really don't have a good feeling about this (warranted or not) cancel the damn thing. Kindly refuse his money and move on. Playing back and forth this long would piss me off too.

And one thing I'd like to correct in this thread: There are millions of people outside of America that do not consider English their first language, yet they manage to speak it perfectly--proper grammar and all. The fact that this man speaks English well, in Hong Kong, a former British territory where English is taught in school and there are thousands of business people that must know the language, is not in itself grounds for concern. To me that reeks of bigoted paranoia.

Cockney · December 8, 2003 2:57AM

Spoon I dont think anyone suggested this fellows ability to speak english threw up a flag....You are correct many people who live in Hong Kong speak nothing but English (including my two nephews who are British/Chinese......)

newsman · December 8, 2003 3:01AM

<< <i>PPS: If I gave him bank info...do you think he could take money out somehow???? >>

Jon:

DO NOT EVER give your bank account information to anyone overseas you do not know and completely trust, even if they promise to deposit large sums of money -- it's one of the oldest scams around.

Chuck

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 3:02AM

Spoon...take no offense....I have refused the persons paypal...it was returned to him this morning...I have told him I am not interested in his paypal or credit card....what I am showing on this thread....IMHO is a fraud/scam and trying to warn some other people who may lose some items....to some people a lose of a few hundred dollars may really be a big hit........ maybe I am completely offbase, but maybe not.....I would be willing to bet the following....if in a few weeks we see that he is legit...I will buy everyone from the thread a round of drinks at the ANA spring convention..... ok my bet is you will start to see a load of Negs shortly....Jon

dorkkarl · December 8, 2003 3:02AM

where do these nut jobs come from???

K S

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 3:08AM

I guess Hong Kong or if you mean me ...Scarsdale?

mgoodm3 · December 8, 2003 3:09AM

I'm thinking we'll be going thirsty.

relayer · December 8, 2003 3:18AM

Open a new savings account and have him wire money into it and ship him his coins to Hong Kong.

Edit: Throw 90% of your fine print away, just stick to the facts and lose the commentary (and the part about the pumkin contest from 2 years ago)

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 3:25AM

but I love that 90%........

ScarsdaleCoin · December 8, 2003 8:21AM

HERE IS THE LATEST EMAIL.....considering HONG KONG is 12 hours different they sure must be working very hard over there LOL

Dear Mr. Lerner,

Please clarify if you would want me to send CASH by post or CASH via the bank into your account. I am not sure if it is legal to send CASH by mail. I will check with our legal department later and confirm. However, the safest, fastest and surest way would be for us to deposit cash into your bank account.

Regards,
Vivien Au-Yeung
Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley

Jon Lerner wrote:

If you want to arrange to send CASH via register mail to me that will be acceptable, then you can arrange for pick up after I have received payment....
Let me know if you wish to do this....

Ljr1964 · December 8, 2003 8:48AM

Sending cash via registered mail is like sending money in an Armored Car.

Global Priority registered or Global Express Registered Mail will work quite well. Get Exact costs at www.usps.com. I too would NOT accept ANY payment wired into your bank account, primarily because I've watched a lot of movies involving hackers.

mgoodm3 · December 8, 2003 8:52AM

Ask them for their bank account number, and that you'll handle the transaction.

4thStooge · December 8, 2003 9:01AM

Have none of you ever heard of BidPay?

You receive a Western Union money order by mail about 2 days after the purchaser pays for it from anywhere in the world. Good as cash.
Feel free to mail anything you want registered - it will get there - but Hong Kong has a postal import limit for bullion of $100 HK.

Bubblehead · December 8, 2003 11:18AM

I hope this'll still be good for tomorrow morning's coffee. Wow. What an ordeal this has turned out to be!

airplanenut · December 8, 2003 11:37AM

Keep it coming!

And I do agree with others... your fine print is very confusing and hard to read.

JoeHolt · December 8, 2003 11:39AM

I look back and this time last year he bought 2 items I looked at the stores of the one and it is silver based Items mostly.

JoeHolt · December 8, 2003 12:14PM

Askari · December 8, 2003 12:15PM

Good grief. Look, his assistant has stated a willingness to have a courier pick up the item. Why not get him to have the courier deliver the money at the same time? Although I have my suspicions, I'm not entirely convinced this person is a scammer. BTW, you can have money wired to your account and not lose money over it. Call your bank and ask how it may be done securely. This isn't rocket science and thousands of people do it every day.

HavanaJoe · December 8, 2003 12:39PM

<< <i>ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CONFIRMED ADDRESS, YOU SCAMMERS CAUGHT US ONCE WITH A FRAUD CREDIT CARD SHIPPING TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS, DON’T EVEN ASK US TO SHIP TO A NOT CONFIRMED ADDRESS! >>

Just and FYI, I would NOT do business with you based upon this text. I moved across town 10 months ago, even though I am using a verified bank account PayPal will not confirm my new address- they have the OLD one as confirmed. My bank has made all address changes months ago- but when I try to change the address on PayPal they don't let it through. Sending items to my confirmed address is not acceptable in my case as I have no idea who lives there. I do NOT do business with anyone who insists on sending items there- they are sending it to a complete stranger!

Holiday Tale for you......includes Fraud? Scams? International Intrigue and Royalty!!!!

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