Grading Franklin's: what is the diff. between 64, 65, 66?

mact · November 29, 2003 1:10PM

I've got a couple slabbed 65's and 66's and I have a heck of a time telling the difference. I can see what makes a 64, it usually seems due to baggyness. Is it the curls on the obverse? The fbl? The "pass and stow"? Clean fields?

I've been looking at a couple 1948-d and 1949-d's at my dealer. They all are fbl but seem weakly struck in the hair and I don't want to plunk down $60-$90 for a 64 but if it was a 65 I'd be happy.

Advice appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Matt

Shamika · November 30, 2003 10:21AM

Anybody???

I too would like to see an answer to this question. Lucy? Frank? Where are you guys (and gals)?

LucyBop · November 30, 2003 10:24AM

sick in bed.....

coinkat · November 30, 2003 10:57AM

I wish you a speedy recovery Lucy... I hope that you feel better soon.

There are others that are better qualified to answer this. The strike has to be good to make 65, however, FB Lines are not a requirement. Some dates such as the 53-s are nearly impossible in FBL. Look for lustre, originality and contact marks will still be there, but should not be too distracting. For example marks in less obvious locations helps. Franklin's face and cheek are focal points and contact marks should be minimal.

coinkat · November 30, 2003 11:00AM

btw, $60-90 for a 49-D FBL is a fair price. One of the biggest problems with the 49-D is the way they were handled. Quality FBL coins are fairly tough to find.

Ronyahski · November 30, 2003 11:52AM

If you are looking at strike on a 48-D and 49-D, comparing hair detail, curls, and Pass and Stow, you may be focusing on the wrong attribute. These dates are almost always fully struck with good detail.

Look at marks, especially on the focal points of the face and bell. One distracting mark will keep a coin from 66. 48-Ds come baggy.

And the most overlooked factor in distinguishing a 66, in my opinion, is luster. Very clean Franklins stand out from the others, but a non-lustrous Frankie, toned or brilliant, will almost always not get a 66 grade. This is especially true on a 49-D the toughest coin in the entire series to find full lustre. Most of them are dull enough to not garner even a 65.

LucyBop · November 30, 2003 11:58AM

ms64 Franklins: This grade the Franklins tend to be very baggy. Or some may have a few hits but if they are big and distracting enough
the coin will not get a GEM grade. Many ms64s will have a soft and mushy strike, especially in the'S' mints... Also, coins that are toned very dark or that have haze can also fall into a 4 holder. PCGs graders donot like hazy and spotted coins and will often place these ones in a 4 holder.

ms65 Franklins: GEM grade, these Frankies in alot of cases can be found relatively mark free and have you thinking upgrade. Most of the GEM Frankies will have very good luster and will have a solid strike, except in the 'S' mints...... I submitted a near perfect 54s, no hits could be found anywhere on this coin, it just had a soft mushy strike keeping it from a 6 holder. I will add that GEM grade Frankies can have more hits then one would think, espcially in the 'D' mints and the 1951 in particular. In 51, Denver had some serious quality control issues, and most GEM 51d ms65 Frankies will probably have more hits then say a 51 p ms65 Frankie...... For the most part, the fields should be really clean and hit free, with some hits on the devices to get a GEM Frankie in a 5 holder.

ms66 Franklins: Typically these Ultra Gems should have a solid strike and strong Luster and high eye appeal. Some hits can still be found but they should be very minimal and non-distracting... These coins should have really clean fields as well as clan devices and the lettering around the rims of the coins should not be mushy.... Though this is the case in ms66 1953s Frankies. Attractive mint set toning with strong luster underneath can often bump a Frankie to this lofty grade.

ms67 Franklins: I have owned a few and seen a few others. These MONSTER GEM coins all have a certian 'PCGs' look to them, super strong luster shining thru some knock out toning. The kind that just wows you... Its hard to explain, but known once seen. Expect it to be very hard to find a mark on a coin in a 7 holder, but you might because remember, a ms67 is not a ms70. These coins will typically have Rainbowed toning or toning of a solid and pretty coloring, no speckled or splotching toning on these, those coins will probably wind up in six holder.....

Now, for brilliant blast white coins..... look for as hit free as possible coins, look for solid strikes, no mushy lettering, look for strong luster, make sure you check the rims also for small dings.. people miss this area.... and of course, check those Bell Lines.....

When I buy raw Frankies I have the attitude of why I should not buy this coin as I'm examining it and I'll tell you, things jump out at me bigtime and I eliminate alot of purchases... ub can be very decieving on a Frankie, it will be found in the upper protion of Frankies head were some of the hairlines are and in the high cheek bone, the coin must be held at certian angles to see the luster break caused by rub which can result in the dreaded au58 grade........

FC57Coins · November 30, 2003 12:00PM

Believe it or not, I wrote a long dissertation on this topic for you today - only to lose it - UGH!!! Anyway I have the pictures, and I will attempt to recreate what I wrote this week sometime.

Until then:

All pics are of FBL coins

MS64 Frankies:

MS65 Frankies:

and MS66 Frankies:

fivecents · November 30, 2003 12:14PM

<< <i>Grading Franklin's: what is the diff. between 64, 65, 66? >>

In a nutshell it is all about how many imperfections and where they are located on the coin.

Merc · November 30, 2003 12:26PM

Lucy gave a great description of the grades. However, Franklins can be graded very strangely. I've seen many in MS65 holders that are ugly. The strike is full, there are few contact marks on Franklin or the bell, but the luster is hidden by ugly mint set toning. The eye appeal is zero. Somehow there are many of these coins in MS65 and 66 holders.

Then I've seen excellent coins in MS64 FBL holders. Some may look great and appear like MS66 coins. After a closer look, there is one contact mark on Franlin's cheek or a small scuff on the bell that makes it MS64. A wonderful looking set of MS64 coins can be bought at 1/10 the cost of a MS65 set.

pmh1nic · November 30, 2003 10:41PM

"I will add that GEM grade Frankies can have more hits then one would think, espcially in the 'D' mints and the 1951 in particular. In 51, Denver had some serious quality control issues, and most GEM 51d ms65 Frankies will probably have more hits then say a 51 p ms65 Frankie"

This maybe one of the things that causes the confusion, how similiar marks will detract more on some years then others. Let me say first that I don't agree with the practice since it adds nothing towards consistence and creates confusion. If two coins have very similar strike, luster and marks they should be graded the same regardless of year of issue. The fact that coins from a particular Mint are typically more baggy shouldn't boast the grade of those coins. When market value is assigned for a particular issue it's assign based on the prevalence of coins in a particular state of preservation for that issue and Mint. There is no reason to make adjustments in grading criteria based on the prevalence of weak stike or bag marks.

LucyBop · November 30, 2003 10:50PM

Well, in my experience with 51d's, these coins are baggy even in GEM status..... and the ms66FBL 51d I owned, it was a very solid coin but it also wasn't hit free... I don't know that PCGs does this intentionaly, but thru my personal submissions I have found that 51d's in GEM or ms65 will typically have more hits then other issues...

RiffRaff1967 · December 1, 2003 2:02AM

Wow - great thread, great posts. I went to a show this past weekend and spent time looking at every certified Frankie I could. I was surprized at the hits on many of the MS65 coins I looked at, but from this I was able to really see the differences in 64 - 66. I think it really helps to see many examples. I probably looked at 30 1957's and 20 1958's in MS65, but I only saw two or three that had eye apeal to me.

mdwoods · December 1, 2003 2:06AM

Between Lucys description and Frankies pictures, it makes it a lot easier to see and understand the differences.

Grading Franklin's: what is the diff. between 64, 65, 66?

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