Problem eBay Auction - not a Top 100 coin

Wolf359 · November 28, 2003 1:12AM

It's a VAM-35A (common) not 29A. I've emailed the seller about 12 hours ago, but he hasn't pulled the auction yet. Our old friend atochajewelry, who prefers PCI slabs over PCGS is at it again.

eBay Auction

Reference:
Rob Joyce's site

hamiltonjh · November 28, 2003 1:36AM

dont mean to be ignorant...but how can you tell?
I need to study up more on Morgans.

razorface1027 · November 28, 2003 1:38AM

Beatings shall continue until moral improves!! (Management 101

Wolf; Be nice and send a copy of the Management 101 text to him/her. This should certainly IMPROVE their selling qualities...

Wolf359 · November 28, 2003 1:59AM

hamiltonjh: Check Rob Joyce's site. It compares the 2 vams.

Gilbert · November 28, 2003 2:01AM

Hey Wolf359,

Not that I'm disputing your attribution YET

, but is there a newer unpublished attribution for the 1900-O VAM35A? I have been unable to locate any update to VAM35 in the VAM Book or its supplement(s) through 2002.

I do agree the die crack appears somewhat different than VAM 29A, particularly between the 9 and 0, and without a reverse to confirm the mintmark placement as normal (29A) or high (35 - and I would expect 35A if it IS a recent attribution) I wouldn't bid on it to find out.

Anywho, if you are aware of updates not widely published as of yet, please let me know.

hamiltonjh · November 28, 2003 2:02AM

looks like a good site...I'm gonna read it at home (I'm at work) when I have time.

THANKS

hamiltonjh · November 28, 2003 2:06AM

ok...my next stupid question.....

whats the difference between die break and die crack? The size of the....gap? I have some morgans with what I thought were die cracks...some pretty prominent and some have ALOT of cracks..lines...around the coin. In the field...

blush...hehe....dumb question?

Wolf359 · November 28, 2003 2:08AM

Gilbert: Can't answer your questions about the VAM-35A supplement; however....

I have a VAM-35A.

hamiltonjh · November 28, 2003 2:32AM

took a look at the website....lots of good info. I'm gonna spend some time this weekend goin thru my morgans.

Gilbert · November 28, 2003 2:44AM

Wolf359 (Jack)

Okay. I checked the reference website, but unless I missed it, I find no reference as to why the coin in question isn't a 35 vice 35A.

I know Rob Joyce is supposed to be a prolific VAMer, has this website and in working on a book about 1921-D varieties. I only wish that if Mr. Van Allen and Dr. Fey want us collectors to defer to Mr. Joyce's attributions as being the gospel, they would actually come out and say so, instead of requiring any new discoveries to go through Mr. Van Allen. They could at least "vouch" for his website OR Mr. Joyce could let us know that when he posts something that has yet to be published, he has at least gone through the channels everyone else is supposed to.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Mr Joyce's info is not correct; only that until someone in authority points out the Mr Joyce is also an authority in assigning new discoveries attribution numbers, I find it inappropriate to pass on such information as being fact, to the exclusion of all others.

I had tried communicating with Mr Joyce regarding a 1900-O/CC attribution (Vams 8, 8A & 10), however, he apparently wa unable to find time to respond - kinda' like my experience in communicating with the SSDC. That being the case, I haven't much choice but to defer to the published authorities, particularly when the info in question differs from what I'm able to verify.

Heck, all his website needa is a stamp of approval, as it appears to be more specific and user friendly on the questionable attributions than the other readily available sites.

JoeHolt · November 28, 2003 3:01AM

can you post the site to look at vam 35 please

Wolf359 · November 28, 2003 3:24AM

Gilbert: Rob is a super guy, always responsive to me. Does not assign VAM numbers. I've even sent him a few coins for VAM help, and he's been very supportive.

I guess you could email Dr. Fey for verification on what is a VAM-35A?

Also, to another the other question --- a die crack is an actual crack into the metal of the coin. A die break is EXTRA metal on top of the surface of the coin. Look at my icon on the left. That's a die Break (extra metal). Somethimes it's hard to see w/o a magnifying glass. Die cracks are very common, true die breaks are rare and usually very interesting. VAM 1A Knobbed '8' in 1880-P; the Donkey Tail in my icon; etc.

hamiltonjh · November 28, 2003 3:28AM

hmmm...great explination, thanks.

THink I have some die cracks and die breaks then. I'll explore the coins this weekend.

cool...give me some learning and something new to look at/for.

thanks

paigowjohnny · November 28, 2003 6:08AM

<< <i>Our old friend atochajewelry >>

I've gotten a couple really nice Morgans from them, in NGC slabs. They must've sold all the PCGS and NGC, and are now clearing inventory

Conder101 · November 28, 2003 10:32PM

<< <i>Also, to another the other question --- a die crack is an actual crack into the metal of the coin. A die break is EXTRA metal on top of the surface of the coin. Look at my icon on the left. That's a die Break (extra metal). Somethimes it's hard to see w/o a magnifying glass. Die cracks are very common, true die breaks are rare and usually very interesting. >>

Ignore that definition.

Die cracks are cracks in the surface of the DIE not the coin and they do appear as raised irregular (usually) lines on the coin but all of the die is still there. A die break occurs when a piece of the die literally breaks off and falls away leaving a raised featureless blob of metal on the coin. Small ones are usually refered to as die chips and if they occur including the edge of the die they are called "cuds" (Large ones can also occur when a piece of the die breaks away on the interior portion of the die and not include the edge. I call these internal cuds but the error hobby declares that it has to include the edge to be called a cud.) It is also possible for a piece of the anvil die to break off but rather that falling away, to be wedged down below the level of the rest of the die. This results in a raised area of metal on the coin but part of the design is still visible on the top of this lump. This is called a retained cud.

Example of a major die break (cud)

Very early state of a retained cud. The die is cracked from between the D &S to between the S & O. That whole piece has broken off the die. The end under STA is sinking and those letters are becoming fainter. You can see that that area on the coin is now higher than the ED area. As that die continued to strike coins that piece of the die continued to sink until the STA was almost no longer visible even on new coins. (I wish I could find a better example than this one to illustrate the retained cud.)

oreville · November 28, 2003 10:59PM

A post to augment examples of conder101 correct definition of die crack.

A coin with a die break (a wider version, or a blob, of the raised metal on the coin) can exhibit both the characteristics of both a blob (cud) and the die crack (raised irregular metal line) connected to each other.

Conder101 · November 29, 2003 12:23AM

A ggod example of which is wolf359's icon. It has a die crack coming from the left through the bottom of the D, it develops due to die chipping into a small internal cud and then the crack continues on to the righ hand side of the picture. (Normally I wuld not call that in internal cud since it only involves chipping from the side of one crack. I usually reserve the term for when a piece of the die fals out from betwen two die cracks but doesn't include the edge.

Wolf359 · November 29, 2003 6:50AM

It's all extra metal....no crack on my icon. The metal runs above the surface from before the 'D' through to the 'A' in DOLLAR.

Wolf359 · November 29, 2003 7:04AM

An earlier Die State of the same Variety (Donkey Tail):

oreville · November 29, 2003 11:13AM

wolf: That icon is the twilight zone between a die crack and a die break. The area in which you see the balloon of metal as opposed to the fine line of metal is the crossover point to a die break.

Just my own opinion.

Conder101 · November 30, 2003 1:04AM

Unless all of that field area of the coin from the CRACK out to the edge of the coin is higher than the field area from the CRACK to the central devices (Which would make it a retained cud) then you have a die crack. The picture in your icon where the edges of the die along the crack have chipped off and formed the raised lump could , slightly erroneously, be called a die break. Do not confuse a die crack (Forms raised line of metal on the coin.) with a cracked planchet (irregular edged line going INTO the coin.).

Problem eBay Auction - not a Top 100 coin

Comments

Leave a Comment