Which Franklin Would You Choose? (Updated Pricing Info)

JMOORE · November 22, 2003 8:24AM

Which one of these would you choose to purchase?
By the way, they both are graded PCGS MS66 FBL

I think that we all agree that #2 is a nicer coin.

But at what price point would you buy #1 instead?

At $100 less, $300 less??

MadMarty · November 22, 2003 8:25AM

I like them both!

Placid · November 22, 2003 8:26AM

If I am going to pay for fbl the bottom ones lines look cleaner.

Dog97 · November 22, 2003 8:28AM

The one on the bottom is the better looking one because it has less hits in the prime focals.

fivecents · November 22, 2003 8:29AM

They are both nice coins, but #2 is nicer.

JoeHolt · November 22, 2003 8:30AM

I like the lower one also but I dont know frankies

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 8:37AM

both appear very deserving for the grade......

but I'll agree with the rest and go with the bottom one....

you should have seen the beautiful 1963 D PCGSMS66FBL die polished one I just sold....

lordmarcovan · November 22, 2003 8:38AM

I'd pick this one.

(Seriously, both of those you posted look nice to me.)

LouisCamp · November 22, 2003 8:38AM

Funny, when I send in coins that look like the top one they come back MS64......

The second one is a better coin.

Lou

rainbowroosie · November 22, 2003 8:40AM

I'm mister negative...#1 is overgraded....I like #2, a far superior coin.

Russ · November 22, 2003 8:43AM

<< Which Franklin Would You Choose? >>

Is this a trick question?

Russ, NCNE

foodude · November 22, 2003 8:56AM

#2

DCAMFranklin · November 22, 2003 8:59AM

I believe I would prefer the bottom coin. Very well struck and minimal marks.

Lordmarcovan- Is the '57 yours?

JMOORE · November 22, 2003 9:00AM

I think that we all agree that #2 is a nicer coin.

But at what price point would you buy #1 instead?

At $100 less, $300 less??

fivecents · November 22, 2003 9:05AM

I would only buy #1 at a discount, because I think it is low end for the grade. What is the price of a MS65FBL and a MS66FBL of that date?

Bobk · November 22, 2003 9:07AM

The lower coin. @ what price #1 for less, 100, 300. Neither. Altho I may be one I dont care for old, fat, bald guys

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 9:09AM

<< I dont care for old, fat, bald guys >>

you've just insulted the majority of the membership here.

Bobk · November 22, 2003 9:14AM

and your point is?

fivecents · November 22, 2003 9:29AM

Bobk.....Watch out for LucyBop's "Pow right in the Frankies". It would be very painful.

ClausUrch · November 22, 2003 9:30AM

Number one should never have made anywhere near MS66 and Number 2 is 65FBL at best! IMHO

JMOORE · November 22, 2003 9:34AM

Hmmmmmmm.....

The fields on these two coins are Super Clean. Why shouldn't they get the 66?

DHeath · November 22, 2003 9:34AM

That reed mark at the top of the bell on coin one is ugly, and the scratch below it doesn't excite me. The hit on the lapel doesn't thrill me either. I wouldn't want #1.

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 9:35AM

<< Number one should never have made anywhere near MS66 and Number 2 is 65FBL at best! >>

always hard to grade from images but whats that you say????

a ms66 coin and often does have hits on it......

figure a perfect ms70 will not have a hit, then a ms69 probably wount have any you can see... ms68 may have some very tiny ones, ms67 some more, ms66 even more...... and so on... ..of course rub also plays a issue here....

I see no problems with these coins....

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 9:37AM

I also want to add that the 63d Franklin is notorious for bagmarks..... the coins in five holders often seem like ms64s, where ms64s can be very baggy... This was a typical poor year at the Denver mint.....

JMOORE · November 22, 2003 9:47AM

From the "Official Guide To Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection" by PCGS

MS-66 Gem Uncirculated

MARKS: There may be several noticeable, but very minor, defects. If marks or hairlines are in an important focal area, they must be minimal and compensated for by the rest of the coin's superbness.

STRIKE: The coin will be well-struck.

LUSTER: The luster will be above average (usually far above average), and any toning should be attractive and should only minimally impede the luster.

EYE APPEAL: The eye appeal will almost always be above average for a gem-quality coin, and many MS-66 coins will be superb in this category. Any negative factors must be compensated for in another area.

Looks like they both fit that description to me.

DHeath · November 22, 2003 9:47AM

Lucy,

I understand PCGS market grading some of these guys, but doesn't the Sheldon scale stop at 67 for the series (66 for some years)? Do you think the two coins pictured are similar enough to warrant the same grade based on the pics?

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 9:51AM

yes I do, from what I see, I think both coins sit well in a six holder.

I have handled 4 ms67fbls and I'll tell you right now, those coins were not mark free, I have seen another 3 ms67fbls, and those were not mark free, they all had outstanding toning and a certian type of strong luster that pushed them to their lofty status. I'm not concerned with Sheldon scores quite frankly.. I'm concerned with what PCGs is looking for in a particular grade when I submit coins.

JMOORE · November 22, 2003 10:03AM

This one sold at the Superior sale for $1600
PCGS MS66 FBL

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 10:11AM

I saw that one, those are some nasty hits on the lower jaw area, but the rest of this coin is so solid, what we can't gauge is the luster, this coin is also a six to me, but one I would pass on...

CarlWohlforth · November 22, 2003 10:12AM

The first one has more marks. We all agree.

As to FBL I would need a to look closely in person.

As to 66 it seems to me that it is possible that the first one has a frostier surface, more luster and perhaps more eye appeal. I'm holding up a Frankie in front of my monitor and it is much smaller than the images shown. Those marks might not be that visible. So, given these photos, I agree with Lucy and can imagine both coins are properly graded.

I would prefer the first coin if the discount to the second were large.

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 10:25AM

<< I would prefer the first coin if the discount to the second were large. >>

Thats a good point worth considering.....

lordmarcovan · November 22, 2003 10:34AM

<< This one sold at the Superior sale for $1600
PCGS MS66 FBL >>

You've gotta be shi__ing me.

1. Somebody would pay over a thousand bucks for a 1963-D Franklin?
2. ...and a spotty, ugly 1963 Franklin, at that?
3. Was the PCGS grader blindfolded? OK, maybe there were FBL's on the reverse, but 66?!? Ben's got buckshot wounds on his face, fer cryin' out loud! Are you sure you posted the right picture?

LucyBop · November 22, 2003 10:39AM

<< Somebody would pay over a thousand bucks for a 1963-D Franklin? >>

many sold in the 3k range when the pops were a bit lower...

MdWoods had a beauty, a wonderful rainbowed stunner.... 3k coin easy.

what ain't worth it to you, may well be worth it to someone else.

XpipedreamR · November 22, 2003 10:40AM

#2 is nicer.

I don't think I would pay $300 more for it, but I would probably pay somewhere under $100 more for it.

lordmarcovan · November 22, 2003 10:47AM

OK, Lucy- I got you on question #1.

While I know of no Frankies I would personally pay over $1,000 for except maybe that 69 DCAM I posted a pic of earlier, I know there are some worth that. That 1963-D that sold for $1,600 at the Superior sale definitely AIN'T one, though! What a piece of junk! Seriously, though, how could they have graded that thing a 66? Looks like a bodybag candidate to me.

(edited to remove my usual superflous, hanging parentheses.)

ClausUrch · November 22, 2003 10:48AM

Coin number 2 has numerous small nicks and ticks upon close examination and warrents a MS65FBL at best. Thant's my story and I'm sticking to it!

DHeath · November 22, 2003 10:54AM

Whether all three coins meet PCGS's standard for MS-66 is sort of mute isn't it. According to the pop reports, PCGS has never seen a MS-67, so anything nicer than the worst coin pictured in this thread is a MS-66. Now, it's just which coin you prefer.

DCAMFranklin · November 22, 2003 11:00AM

That coin from the Superior sale is an obvious "favor coin". What a tragedy for that coin to sit in a 66 holder. The new owner should do the hobby a favor and send the coin in for a grade guarantee.

rainbowroosie · November 22, 2003 11:03AM

JMOORE,
That coin is a 64...at best...sorry....#2 is a respectable coin at 66.

Askari · November 22, 2003 2:36PM

Geez, Louise!!

Unless it's in a marred holder and those marks aren't on the coin, I just can't see that Superior coin being more than MS64 FBL. Now, I could see the $$$ premium if it were the ultra-rare "Vampire Bite" variety.

However, I can't see 66 with bagmarks like those in such a prominent position. I agree with Claus, I can see #2 being MS65 FBL, but if those are what PCGS is giving 66s to for Frankies, I guess they're being a little lenient considering their proclivity towards collecting bag marks. I doubt you'd get 66s from PCGS on Morgans or most other coins with marks resembling those on the Superior coin.

Gilbert · November 23, 2003 1:34AM

Come on guys. Are you thinking this through? A grade of 66 is nowhere near a perfect coin. There is practically no marks whatsoever in the fields and there are a few superficial looking abrasions in the hair behind the ear, a little contact at the base of the bust on one, and nothing really worth mentioning in the face. They both look extremely well struck and although I would like to see more definition in the bell (I'd have to transport myself back and touch up the die) there is nothing so significant as to reduce the overall grade.

Try looking at the coin objectively, accounting for the strike, luster (which we can't really evaluate), contact mark(s) present or not BASED on the focal areas, which all should be evaluated ACCORDING TO THE SIZE of the coin.

IrishMike · November 23, 2003 1:58AM

What Gilbert just said.

Askari · November 23, 2003 4:42AM

I'm trying to allow for excellent luster and, yes, the fields are exceptionally clean ... except for what looks like a staccato marring of the R in LIBERTY that appears to be reflected on the other side (at the first S in STATES) and the fact that there's scattered bag marks all over Franklin's face. Most of the latter are very minor (aside from that one annoying splotch or water mark), but what immediately draws the eye are the twin "bite marks", cheek ding, and toned scratch (?) near his mouth. The reverse is exceptionally clean for a Franklin Half, but I seem to recall the obverse carries the grade, right?

MadMonk · November 23, 2003 5:12AM

If I only had the scan to judge by, I wouldnt buy #1 unless it was 65 money.
So # 2 would be my choice. I'll take some light contact in the fields over the bust anytime.

rainbowroosie · November 23, 2003 8:04AM

That Superior Coin is a PIG!

Gilbert · November 23, 2003 8:06AM

Askari,

Not trying to beat this to death, but:

except for what looks like a staccato marring of the R in LIBERTY that appears to be reflected on the other side (at the first S in STATES) and the fact that there's scattered bag marks all over Franklin's face. Most of the latter are very minor (aside from that one annoying splotch or water mark), but what immediately draws the eye are the twin "bite marks", cheek ding, and toned scratch (?) near his mouth.

I'll grant the contact around the periphery - not primary or secondary focal areas

I just don't see "scattered bag marks all over ... face." I am seeing very superficial contact, which I suppose in the generalist sense are bagmarks, but they appear to be so slight I would hesitate to describe them as bagmarks.

Nor do I see a splotch or watermark; please point it out to me. Is the "toned scratch" in front of his mouth in the field? That is a metal flow discoloration, if we are observing the same thing.

I give you the fang marks dead center of the bell inscription, but .. I know what it is. You are expecting the perfection one finds in the darkside coins, and have become overly criticial of your bland designs. I forgive you.

DHeath · November 23, 2003 8:23AM

Perhaps I see the coins differently than some, but rather than ramble, I'll just put up a pic. I like coin two because coin one has the following flaws:

Gilbert · November 23, 2003 8:51AM

dheath,

I apologize if you feel I was rambling, however and I admit that I didn't initiate the thread, but I was curious why some disputed or accepted the grades given. I attempted to impart my understanding of why the grades seem appropriate, whether one disagrees or not, but along the same lines:

Is your no rambling response an acceptance or rejection of the grade assigned? Why is it important to me? I like to know how much or how little credence to place on someone's opinion of a grade. Not that I would take one thread and conclude blankety-blank is a moron, but, over a period of time you may come to understand what so and so's 66 really is, whether you agree with the number or not.

Lastly, not to be too presumptuous, but I thought I might be providing a little grading info, or at least pointing out what I believe is published grading criteria to be considered when evaluating Franklin half dollars.

Anywho, JMoore - sorry for the hi-jack.

DHeath · November 23, 2003 9:01AM

Gilbert,

The rambling comment was intended only to describe MY previous post. In order to convey my opinion of the coin, I thought I could economize and simply mark-up a picture.

As for my opinion of grade, the initial poster asked which coin he should buy and why. In my opinion, coin two is clearly superior based only on the scans (admitting one cannot judge luster). Obviously, PCGS is allowing quite a bit of bagginess in this series, but I don't like coin one as a 66. To me it is a 65 for the reasons noted in the picture. Coin two is IMO a 66, with much stronger reverse detail.

Askari · November 23, 2003 9:39AM

<< I give you the fang marks dead center of the bell inscription, but .. I know what it is. You are expecting the perfection one finds in the darkside coins, and have become overly criticial of your bland designs. I forgive you.

>>

Gil, what DHeath said.

To wit: "Obviously, PCGS is allowing quite a bit of bagginess in this series, but I don't like coin one as a 66." I concur. Based on what I understand MS66 to be -- and I'm certainly no Frankie expert -- I simply find myself "stretched" to give it here. If PCGS gives more allowance for bag marks on a Franklin than a Morgan, well then, I've learned something ... or maybe I've just grown "tighter" than PCGS (which I doubt).

I cannot tell from this pic what is "going on" around the R in LIBERTY, but it looks like what you see happen to road signs in West Texas where boys will be boys with BB guns. The "splotch" I was referring to in JMoore's pic above is what looks like a Kennedy-esque gunshot wound to the head. I can't tell for sure what it is either. As for the metal flow discoloration, what impact, if any, does it tend to have on the grade? While I can understand if Ben's head isn't a "focal area", but the fang marks sure do make it one. They're hard to miss and become the center of attention on first glance; I had to look again at the fields to see how nice they were. The fields are so nice, in fact, that if you removed the fangs, I'd be quite willing to consider a 66 for this coin.

Oh, and as for Darkside, please believe me when I say there's far more variation in coin problem areas than are dreamt of in your collecting area.

The difference, we don't get so hung up on one-point micrograding.

rainbowroosie · November 23, 2003 9:54AM

I will simply state that years ago when PCGS started grading frankies, they never would have put that dinged up , crater faced coin in a 66 holder...it is plainly not a 66....if the plastic breaks it is a 64 on a good day!!

Which Franklin Would You Choose? (Updated Pricing Info)

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Which Franklin Would You Choose? **(Updated Pricing Info)**

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Which Franklin Would You Choose? (Updated Pricing Info)