Trivia Time VIII

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 12:29PM

What date were the 1816 cents delivered? Bonus: What happened the next day?

Trooper · November 19, 2003 12:32PM

april 22 1864 & they were spent

Got me on this one

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 12:34PM

<< april 22 1864 & they were spent

Got me on this one >>

Ah, another one falls by the wayside.

Where are you NJcollector?

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 12:39PM

Does it have anything to do with bank chartering?

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 12:42PM

<< Does it have anything to do with bank chartering? >>

You're wavering.

No, it has to do with the fact that cents are the only US coins dated 1816.

Oh, you were right about blue. I hate you.

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 12:47PM

I'm thinking more history now than coin trivia.
1816 huh?

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 12:51PM

Are we talking the month of April?

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 12:52PM

<< Are we talking the month of April? >>

No.

Don't give up

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 12:54PM

I cant think of anything from 1816 that was that noteworthy? How bout a little help.

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 12:57PM

<< I cant think of anything from 1816 that was that noteworthy? How bout a little help. >>

Well, Indiana became a state on Dec 11th, if you consider that noteworthy. However, that has nothing to do with the question.

So, if you're thinking of history, then think of US Mint history. Something definately noteworthy happened in 1816.

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 1:05PM

I know that in 1816, the mint started producing the cents again, after a stoppage. I think I am stuck.

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 1:08PM

<< I know that in 1816, the mint started producing the cents again, after a stoppage. I think I am stuck. >>

Nope, no 1816 cents were coined in 1816. You are stuck, a small consolation for the correct blue guess

Anyone else care to take a shot?

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 1:15PM

Don't count me out yet. Just a little hint. Something to point me in the right direction?

MacCrimmon · November 19, 2003 1:15PM

Well, the 2nd Bank of the U.S. was re-chartered in 1816 for another 20 years, and, the Matron LCs were never legal tender, or any Large Cent for that matter. Those first 1816 cents were actually coined in late 1815.

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 1:17PM

I tried the banking charter idea. He said No.

The mint was supposed to move to Washington, but that didn't take place. Still thinking.

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 1:18PM

<< Well, the 2nd Bank of the U.S. was re-chartered in 1816 for another 20 years, and, the Matron LCs were never legal tender, or any Large Cent for that matter. Those first 1816 cents were actually coined in late 1815. >>

Yes, all that's correct but back to the original question, What date were the 1816 cents delivered and what happened the next day?

MacCrimmon · November 19, 2003 1:20PM

OK, I'll take a stab at delivery on January 10th, 1816, and the next day the mint's rolling presses burned; hence no silver or gold in 1816.

NJCollector · November 19, 2003 1:20PM

The mint had a renovation around that time, but that is not a major event, right?

MacCrimmon · November 19, 2003 1:35PM

An American cent from British copper!

Trooper · November 19, 2003 1:38PM

Wasn't there a song
"In 1816 we took a little trip, down the mississippi...."

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 1:41PM

<< OK, I'll take a stab at delivery on January 10th, 1816, and the next day the mint's rolling presses burned; hence no silver or gold in 1816.

>>

We have a winner! You looked it up didn't you?

MacCrimmon · November 19, 2003 2:42PM

<< You looked it up didn't you? >>

Nah! Just a lucky guess!!

Hey, I'm a member of EAC.....and, I'll confess that the info is contained in John Wright's, 'The Cent Book', But the LC is mine, at least until some cents-less

bidder wins it some day.

It's a very scarce Newcomb 5, BTW. Currently residing in an NGC MS64BN slab.

Veridicus · November 19, 2003 2:53PM

Very nice! Part of the Randall Hoard?

MacCrimmon · November 19, 2003 3:27PM

Nope! Randall cents from 1816 are the N2 var. The N5 condition census' trace a little over a dozen true MS examples.

Conder101 · November 20, 2003 12:39AM

<< Wasn't there a song
"In 1816 we took a little trip, down the mississippi...." >>

Close
"In 1815 we took a little trip, along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Missisip."
From The Battle of New Orleans

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 1:48AM

<< 

<< Wasn't there a song
"In 1816 we took a little trip, down the mississippi...." >>

Close
"In 1815 we took a little trip, along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Missisip."
From The Battle of New Orleans >>

Closer. It's 1814.

Conder101 · November 20, 2003 2:05AM

Yu're right the lyrics do say 1814. I thought it was 1815 because the Battle of New Orleans wasn't faught in 1814. It was n 1815 about two weeks after the war had ended. (Slow communications.)

MacCoin · November 20, 2003 2:07AM

is this the year they swapped from the screw to the steam power presses?

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 2:55AM

<< is this the year they swapped from the screw to the steam power presses? >>

No, after the rolling mills burned, those were changed to steam power when the mint repoened in 1817 (I believe the planchet cutting presses were also converted). Coining presses weren't steam powered until 1836.

Rittenhouse · November 20, 2003 8:02AM

Good to be back after too long an absence - new job, house projects, etc. interfered with "more important" things.

An interesting trivia question; actually a trick question of sorts.

1. When were the 1816 cents delivered?

A: Starting in February of 1816, and throughout the year. The Mint Treasurer's account book for copper coinage ("Treasurer of the Mint, Receipts for Copper Coinage") in the National Archives, Record Group 104, "Records of the US Mint at Philadelphia", records the following deliveries of cents in 1816:
Feb. 3 - 183,500
Feb. 20 - 193,000
Feb. 26 - 89,000

This account book was unknown prior to late 1999 when it was found by yours truly while I was rummaging thru records in the archives. The last entry in the account book is for Feb. 26 and no further account books have been found to date.

The "Mint Report" for 1816 states that 2.820,982 cents were "delivered" in that year. Since the 465,500 received by the Treasurer in February represents less that 17% of that total, obviously many more cents were struck throughout the year.

The "Mint Fire" that took place on January 11, 1816 at 2:00 a.m. destroyed the building housing the rolling machine and the planchet cutting presses and then spread to the building that housed the furnaces for smelting bullion. While the fire shutdown gold and silver coinage, copper coinage was unaffected since the Mint did not produce its own planchets. Since 1797, the Mint ordered finished copper planchets from a few British firms. In 1815 - 1816 copper planchets were provided by both Harrold & Bells and Boulton & Co.

Four days after the fire (January 15th), Mint Director Robert Patterson wrote to President Madison seeking approval to repair the Mint, stating “that this can be done, and on a much improved plan, without any special appropriation for that purpose, merely from the balances of former appropriations not yet carried to the surplus fund.” The promise to spend only surplus funds was apparently a powerful “selling point” and Patterson quickly received approval on the 19th to repair the Mint.

Three steam-powered rolling machines with additional sets of rollers and gear assemblies were ordered to drawings supplied by the Mint, from the English firm of Harrold and Belles on May 27, 1816 and received in late November. The records likewise show that a steam engine was ordered from Oliver Evans.

A draw bench and a planchet cutting press were also installed during this time. These were evidently made by Mint personnel as there is no record of their being ordered from an outside source.

It appears that the Mint copied Boulton’s design for drawbench. Detailed drawings of Boulton’s equipment had appeared just two years earlier in the 1815 edition of the American Edition of the New Edinburgh Encyclopedia and illustrations of the Mint’s drawbench from period publications show a rather “remarkable" similarity!

The planchet cutting press was also apparently of Mint design. There is only one passing mention of it in the historical record – Waldo Abbott’s December 1861 article Making Money – where it is described as the first one installed about forty years prior.

2. and what happened the next day?

A: The next day after the first delivery of large cents, the Mint was busily striking more cents. And probably still clearing debris from the fire, of course!

Best, Rittenhouse

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 8:47AM

Where does John Wright get his Jan 10th info from?

Rittenhouse · November 20, 2003 9:38AM

John made a bad assumption; he didn't do the research.

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 9:58AM

Thanks. Hey, you don't happen to be THE David Rittenhouse do you?

kranky · November 20, 2003 11:33AM

Whoa, Rittenhouse is back with a vengeance! Good to see you back.

Good trivia question, Veridicus.

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 11:49AM

<< Whoa, Rittenhouse is back with a vengeance! Good to see you back.

Good trivia question, Veridicus. >>

Thanks but I apparently based it on some shoddy John Wright research

kranky · November 20, 2003 11:58AM

Well, had the question not been raised, we would never have known that Wright was wrong!

MacCrimmon · November 20, 2003 12:11PM

John W. never mentioned the date of Jan. 10. That was my guess based on the fact that the fire occured on the 11th. However, he did proffer that the first 1816 cents were delivered in late 1815, being struck as soon as planchets were received from the UK in Nov. 1815.

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 12:47PM

<< John W. never mentioned the date of Jan. 10. That was my guess based on the fact that the fire occured on the 11th. However, he did proffer that the first 1816 cents were delivered in late 1815, being struck as soon as planchets were received from the UK in Nov. 1815. >>

Doesn't Wright say something like, the entire mintage was delivered the day before the mint burned, etc? This may be my fault since I don't actually have the book any longer. Perhaps MY research is shoddy

Rittenhouse · November 21, 2003 2:26AM

Not sure what Wright sez; I use the Noyes books. As to the first delivery of 16s being in 1815, this is a POSSIBILITY. Julian and I have discussed this point for several years, no firm proof, they could have used 1814 dies. I'll re-check the acct book when I get home.

Rittenhouse · November 21, 2003 9:46AM

I checked the account books. There were no official deliveries of cents in 1815. But, that doesn't mean there were no cents struck or delivered from the coining room to the Treasurer in 1815. I realize this sounds strange, but let me explain Mint accounting briefly. Coinage was not considered "officially delivered" until the Director signed a warrant "officially receiving" it. Sometimes the paperwork got a little out of sync and you'll see records in the account books prior to a warrant and vice versa. For 1815, all the paperwork agrees. However, there were obviously "working records", i.e., a slip of paper showing what the coiner said he had delivered to the Treasurer and a check by the Treasurer. The warrant would then be drawn up by a clerk for the Director's signature, the warrant signed, and the appropriate entries made in the account books.

Got a headache already? Wait it gets worse.
On Jan 1, 1816, the Mint Director wrote the "annual report" for the preceding year (i.e., 1815) and sent it to the President. It was reported in Congress on Jan. 8. In that report the Director (R. Patterson) states:

"But a fresh supply of copper having lately been received at the Mint, we have again resumed the coinage of cents..."

With the cessation of the War of 1812 in Dec 1814, the Mint could again order planchets from Boulton & Co. The Mint had run out of planchets in Oct of 1814 and the next shipment did not arrive in port until late Nov. of 1815. The planchets were not completely unloaded until Dec 10, although some may have been delivered to the Mint prior to that. Certainly there were planchets at the Mint by mid-Dec.

Now the problem is what does this all mean? Does Patterson's statement dated Jan 1, 1816 mean coinage had resumed that day or in late Dec. 1815? If the Mint struck cents in late Dec. of 1815, did they use the old "Classic Head" 1814 dies or the new 1816 "Matron Head" dies?

Julian and I have discussed this for years over large quantities of Tylenol (I think I'm gonna switch to Vicodin

). Our best GUESS is that the Mint started coining cents in late Dec. of 1814 as it would make little sense for the Director to write a report referring to the prior year and stating that coinage HAD resumed. It is likewise our best GUESS that the Mint used the 1816 dies since they were changing design.

I think I'm gonna take that "vike" now, turn on the cartoon channel, and drool in my lap

.

Veridicus · November 21, 2003 9:50AM

Thanks for the info! I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

MacCrimmon · November 21, 2003 3:01PM

Thanks, Rittenhouse. Now, that was succinct, wasn't it? Got any more vicodin? No wait, I just received a few more offers in my email box!!

Oh yeah, please, no discussions on emission sequences of early copper! My brain is already severely cramped as it is!

Seriously, any new archive finds, let us know.

Mac

Trivia Time VIII

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