What do you guys think of this?

ColonialCoinUnion · November 20, 2003 9:22AM

airplanenut · November 20, 2003 9:43AM

Another pop-top modern? Jeeez.... it won't be alone in that condition for long... look how recently those things were minted!

Russ · November 20, 2003 9:43AM

Looks counterfeit.

Russ, NCNE

nwcs · November 20, 2003 9:46AM

Russ, that's sort of where I was thinking. But I needed someone else to say it first.

tlhoy · November 20, 2003 10:00AM

It's in a SEGS slab. Link

ColonialCoinUnion · November 20, 2003 10:01AM

I saw it on eBay and thought the pic was fairly convincing - but then I scanned down and saw that its in a Segs holder, which I guess is the numismatic equivalent of wearing a 'kick me' sign in elementary school.

Russ · November 20, 2003 10:03AM

I thought it looked like it was in somebody's slab. I still think it's counterfeit. The pursing of her lips doesn't look quite right to me, and the rim cud looks funny. Of course, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time!

Russ, NCNE

Placid · November 20, 2003 10:05AM

Restrike maybe

Russ · November 20, 2003 10:09AM

Here's the real deal from the Heritage archives:

Edited to make it a side-by-side comparison. BTW, the Heritage coin sold raw as an AU55.

Russ, NCNE

nwcs · November 20, 2003 10:09AM

Actually, the hair and the denticles along with the look of the surface just makes me unsettled about this coin. I'm no EAC-er, but it doesn't suit me.

Veridicus · November 20, 2003 10:18AM

<< I thought it looked like it was in somebody's slab. I still think it's counterfeit. The pursing of her lips doesn't look quite right to me, and the rim cud looks funny. Of course, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time!

Russ, NCNE >>

That's a dead givaway on the fakes, Miss liberty isn't supposed to be carrying a purse.

Russ · November 20, 2003 10:30AM

You know, the more I look at those two side-by-side, the more I think they may be the same coin. There are an awful lot of spots in exactly the same places.

Russ, NCNE

goose3 · November 20, 2003 10:31AM

I think you are on to something Russ.

jonesy · November 20, 2003 10:36AM

From an AU55 to MS62!!

Russ · November 20, 2003 10:38AM

<< From an AU55 to MS62!! >>

My guess would be that it had a detour to one or two more reputable grading services first.

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion · November 20, 2003 10:48AM

Cool Russ. And I agree they are one and the same coin.

This just goes to show the value of sending something to Segs. I really did think the pic was convincing, but when i saw it was a Segs coin I just assumed it was 1) fake, 2) whizzed, or 3) just plain old crap.

This coin would almost certainly sell for more as an AU55 raw.

golddustin · November 20, 2003 10:49AM

The first thing to catch my eye on the first example was the weak strike of the date, while the rest of the coin seemed like a pretty good strike...but when Russ put them side-by-side, the difference in the date really stands out...the Heritage example not only has a better striking on the date, but the numbers are wider and differently shaped. I don't think it's the same coin...........

Russ · November 20, 2003 10:52AM

<< the Heritage example not only has a better striking on the date, but the numbers are wider and differently shaped. I don't think it's the same coin........... >>

That, and a couple of the other differences are easily accounted for by angle and lighting as well as the fact that one image was shot raw, while the other is in a slab. There are simply too many spots and dings in exactly the same locations. Far more is similar about the two than is different.

Russ, NCNE

fivecents · November 20, 2003 10:53AM

From an AU55 To a MS62. Now that is what I call grade inflation.

Russ · November 20, 2003 10:55AM

<< This coin would almost certainly sell for more as an AU55 raw. >>

It brought $8550 when Heritage sold it in February 2000.

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion · November 20, 2003 10:56AM

Heres a slightly different angled pic from the eBay listing compared to the ones russ posted.

Obviously the same coin.

And heres how it looked when it appeared raw in Bowers and Merena's March 2003 Auction, lot 379, where it failed to meet its reserve.

Placid · November 20, 2003 11:03AM

So Heritage sold a fake?

elwood · November 20, 2003 11:04AM

It's not unusual for a raw 55 or 58 copper coin from an auction to end up in a 62,3,4 or 5 holder. It happens all the time, IF, you know which 55 or 58 coins to buy. And most of the time they're in a PCGS or NGC slab.

lordmarcovan · November 20, 2003 11:06AM

[Crocodile Hunter voice]

What a beauty!

[/Crocodile Hunter voice]

ColonialCoinUnion · November 20, 2003 11:07AM

<< So Heritage sold a fake? >>

No, no, no. It was offered by Bowers in their auction in March as an XF-45 and didn't meet reserve. Prior to that it was at Heritage as noted by Russ as a raw AU55. Prior to that it was in Sotheby's Gene Reale Auction in January 1998. Prior to that it was in New England Rare Coin Auction sale of April 1980.

Apparently the coin has some file marks on the die cuds (this according to the Bowers lot description), which may explain why it has been graded (or net graded) so differently through the years. Maybe the file marks were expertly removed before Segs slabbed it? Who knows.

Placid · November 20, 2003 11:10AM

Ok I thought Russ was right

BigMoose · November 20, 2003 11:15AM

File marks? It looks like someone or something was Chewing on that cud above RTY!

Russ · November 20, 2003 11:20AM

Now, now, Placid, you should know better than that.

<< Of course, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time! >>

Russ, NCNE

Pistareen · November 21, 2003 6:37AM

Hi all:

This coin is an old friend -- I catalogued it for B+M as part of the last sale I helped write while on staff there. In the 19th century, filing down cuds was pretty common -- the Mint did it to medals with broken dies because cuds were thought of as a flaw in the coin/medal. This piece is like a Porsche with a big tear in the leather seat, a coin with great color and surfaces with a man-made defect. That defect keeps it out of a major service holder.

What do you guys think of this?

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