"64" doesn't mean cleaned. "64 cleaned" means cleaned. Do you agree?

UncleJoe · November 12, 2003 10:16PM

I borrowed the title from a reply in another thread. When I read it, it made me think.

I personally have always kept "GRADE" and "problems" separate. I like that ANACS grades problem coins but have never liked their net-grading. The coin is "x" grade with "x" problem. Nuff said, no need for net-grade as now you are trying to price the coin and the buyer and seller decide that.

A coin can be 64 or any other grade AND have problems. Any thoughts?

Joe.

darktone · November 12, 2003 10:21PM

I have seen many MS64 graded coins by the big three that have been cleaned. I don't think any cleaned coin should be graded MS. mike

pmh1nic · November 12, 2003 10:21PM

If were talking AU, XF, VF, etc. yes. But a MS coin can't be cleaned, holed, tooled, etc. and still be MS. The problem is evidence that it was in circulation.

Outhaul · November 12, 2003 10:21PM

In my book, "CLEANED" = no grade.

Just my eversohumble opinion.

Cheers,

Bob

UncleJoe · November 12, 2003 10:29PM

But a MS coin can't be cleaned, holed, tooled, etc. and still be MS. The problem is evidence that it was in circulation.

Not to start a never-ending battle but by the above definition I would include dipping as evidence that it was in circulation but I know there are many who would disagree.

Joe.

darktone · November 12, 2003 10:34PM

Joe, my definition of cleaned also includes any coin I can tell has been dipped and I consider AT coins damaged. mike

joeyuk · November 12, 2003 10:36PM

A coin removed from a mint set and cleaned,holed and tooled and submitted for grading was in my opinion never circulated but obviously should and would not get a ms grade. Perhaps a designation of repaired is better for a cleaned or tooled coin.

darktone · November 12, 2003 10:42PM

MS=MINT STATE- so if the surface was altered in any way the coin leaves this catagory in my book. mike

Goldog63 · November 12, 2003 10:48PM

Dipping is accepted for MS coins but not circ coins. Go figure.

Outhaul · November 12, 2003 10:51PM

Not to open up a can of worms, but...What do you consider a chopmarked TD that is otherwise MS?

Personally, I see them as impaired and "NO-GRADE". Please, this is not a shot at TD or chopmarked coin collectors, just my opinion. I'm asking this because I see chopmarked TD's on eBay all the time where the seller is claiming them as UNC. I don't recall ever seeing one in a holder graded as UNC.

Cheers,

Bob

mercurynut · November 12, 2003 10:55PM

It all comes down to the surface of the coin....its either mint state or not. Cleaning kills most coins.

Fairlaneman · November 12, 2003 11:05PM

<< <i>I personally have always kept "GRADE" and "problems" separate. >>

Joe I am not sure how you can do this. Problems equate directly to what a coin grades. Sure a coin can have no wear and have Mint State details strike wise but if the luster is impaired, cleaned, the coin is not mint state any longer. JMHO.

On the Trade Dollar. Its damaged. The coin is a part of numismatic history but still damaged. Again JMHO.

Ken

XpipedreamR · November 12, 2003 11:32PM

<< <i>"64" doesn't mean cleaned >>

I would definitely agree with this premise!

nwcs · November 12, 2003 11:35PM

I like the details grade, but I do not think you should grade 64 or 65 and then have a designation for cleaned or whatever. I like what NCS does, if it is uncirculated they just say uncirculated with a list of the problems. If it is not uncirculated, then I think a grade is appropriate with the list of problems. Let the buyer net grade for themselves.

MrEureka · November 12, 2003 11:37PM

You can grade coins any way you like. Doesn't make you right or wrong. But the grading services have always been willing to accept some degree of cleaning when grading some coins "MS". If you have a problem with that, maybe you shouldn't buy those coins.

XpipedreamR · November 12, 2003 11:38PM

<< <i>Not to open up a can of worms, but...What do you consider a chopmarked TD that is otherwise MS... >>

I would say that they're definitely damaged or impaired. But chopmark collectors area different breed and a numismatic subculture, so I say they can call them whatever they want, lest they should try to chopmark me!

FrattLaw · November 12, 2003 11:39PM

Actually a light, very light cleaning won't take a coin out of MS grades, so I have been told by 2 professional graders. Though it might cause a MS64 to come down to a MS60-62 coin. If the cleaning is light and it doesn't detract from the eye appeal then I don't see it as a huge problem. Remember why lightly cleaned coins get bodybaged by PCGS.

If the coin has been cleaned it still has value, it just should be net graded, as ANACS does. There's alot of wiped coins in the world that are worth owning.

IMHO

Michael

pmh1nic · November 13, 2003 1:36AM

"A coin removed from a mint set and cleaned,holed and tooled and submitted for grading was in my opinion never circulated"

Unless the cleaning, tooling or holing (if that's a word

) took place at the Mint, a Federal Reserve Bank or your local banking institution (NOT) the coin is circulated. But we can agree to disagree.

BigMoose · November 13, 2003 1:50AM

Uncle Joe, "64 cleaned" to me means a coin with Mint State sharpness that has been abrasively cleaned( metal moved with resultant hairlines ), and a coin that will No-grade at PCGS or NGC because of the cleaning. Unless the coin was very lightly wiped or cleaned with only minor resulting hairlines, such a coin would be body bagged by PCGS or NGC. TomT.

dorkkarl · November 13, 2003 3:53AM

<< <i>64" doesn't mean cleaned. "64 cleaned" means cleaned. Do you agree? >>

defintiely not, what's the paranoia w/ cleaned coins? happens all the time.

"64" simply means it is a bit better than "choice" but not quite a gem, & says nada about "cleaning". MANY cleaned coins are VERY, VERY choice. if you are so all uptight about it, chances are you should choose an easier hobby, like collecting marbles.

literally thousands upon thousands of ms-65, ms-66, 67 & up have been "cleaned" by dipping them. your focusing on the wrong thing, whether it's cleaned or not, you should focus on whether or not you LIKE the coin as it is.

K S

Fairlaneman · November 13, 2003 4:01AM

Cleaned has a different meaning to many folks. What a weird Hobby with all of the terms that can have different meanings. Maybe Marble collecting is better.

Ken

joeyuk · November 13, 2003 5:44AM

pmh 1nic, I don't know if we really disagree. The coin would definately be damaged but I wouldn't think any more circulated then if you removed it from the set and just sent it in for grading. I may be wrong but I look at circulation as wear not damage but it can sure be damaged along the way.

airplanenut · November 13, 2003 8:10AM

I think ANACS net grades for a reason- slabs were designed to help people agree on grades via 3rd parties. In this case, the grade also includes a problem- and the net grade shows the problem's severity. Just like having a say on the number, the net grade has a say in the extent of the damage.

Jeremy

darktone · November 13, 2003 8:36AM

Is this one acceptable as MS64?

grip · November 13, 2003 9:10AM

If it's a common date yes,if it's rare no

.Al

coinkat · November 13, 2003 10:57AM

First of all, a grade is merely an opinion that is intended to best describe the state of preservation of a coin. Some opinions are better than others. As for cleaning and still assigning an MS64 grade to a coin can be problematic. If a coin clearly has been impaired due to a cleaning, it really should not be considered a viable cndidate for an MS64 grade. The issue of a dipped coin is much more controversial topic that is often argued on the this forum. Please consider tuning in to the threads that discuss the merits of white coins that have obviously been dipped and those that have not.

Darktone:

I wouldn't mind seeing the coin first before attempting to determine if it is a 64. There are some slight hairlines but those hairlines may not be due to a cleaning.

"64" doesn't mean cleaned. "64 cleaned" means cleaned. Do you agree?

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&quot;64&quot; doesn't mean cleaned. &quot;64 cleaned&quot; means cleaned. Do you agree?

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"64" doesn't mean cleaned. "64 cleaned" means cleaned. Do you agree?