Full Step Jefferson Pricing

jtwax · October 26, 2003 4:19AM

I have recently updated the Full Step Price Guide on my website and would like to ask the assistance of the many talanted FS Jefferson collectors on this board for your opinions of the prices set. As a die-hard Jefferson step collector you may know that sometimes the PCGS price guide can be inaccurate (for lack of a better term) when determining the value of a full step nickel since the registry can drive the prices to various levels. What I would like to do is take the opinions of other collectors to try to compile a prcing structure that is accurate and up to date. Please take a look at the pricing I have listed and let me know any comments or concerns that you may have. I am more of a nickel variety collector so your opinions are greatly valued.

Full Step Price Guide

Thanks in advance!

DennisH · October 26, 2003 4:31AM

Any chance of adding prices for non-full step coins in MS65-66-67?

Most of the time I feel as though I'm the only one in the world who prefers grade over steps, and the availability of pricing data on non-FS coins is REALLY limited/unreliable.

jtwax · October 26, 2003 4:35AM

A good idea, and yes, underrated. I will see what I can do.

Thanks.

pontiacinf · October 26, 2003 5:01AM

Very nice my friend...

anyway of adding varities like 42 d/d and proof such as the 71-no s?

pontiacinf · October 26, 2003 5:02AM

let me add its almost impossible for me to get a price on my pcgs pr68cam 71 no s

jtwax · October 26, 2003 6:23AM

I added the proof listing as well as a couple other "Red Book" varieties....

keets · October 26, 2003 8:22AM

hey Pontiac

the easiest way to get a price for that no-S is to place it for auction with no reserve. otherwise, just figure around $850. that's my price for the issue.

hey JT

as far as price information, the PCGS guide is something i use as a base starting point, then i take 60% of what they list and work backward!! here's one that i won over the weekend. not bad for a coin listed as a pop 19 with 2 better and 40-some backing it up. my high bid was $78.55. if you want some of my file info i'd be happy to share it with you. it's also in excel.

bottom line for me is that i try not to bid on a coin unless i have some sale history to look at. prices by dealers at shows, in shops and online are stupid and they should know it. they consistently ask PCGS guide prices when the coins sell way below that at eBay and other auction venues. honestly, i have no idea how they sell the coins and i wish i knew who the buyers were. the old tried and true line that their coins are PQ and the eBay/teletrade/heritage material is garbage just doesn't fly with me.

with regard to non-FS coins as mentioned by Dennis, why would you buy a holdered coin for any premium when you can find raw non-FS coins easily for a fraction of slabbed ones?? just look at shows and submit under economy and wait for the 66's to come rolling in!! there are plenty of coins out there that are MS66 non-FS raw and available for .25-$3, the exceptions being a few tougher dates which will cost below $15.

al h.

supercoin · October 26, 2003 9:45AM

Your 1975 MS66 Full Step price seems low to me. VERY low, I hope.

I tried to get some pricing opinions for that coin on the registry board a few days ago and nobody had any, but Teletrade auction sales of over two years ago were for 2-3x that for coins that looked like nothing special. And I thought Jeffersons have kind of gone crazy since then? Current population is only 16/1.

More recent auction pricing will be available in a few days, hehe... link to a randomly selected eBay auction for educational purposes only, of course.

Oh yeah, here's a photo --->

Good luck with your project!

DennisH · October 26, 2003 9:55AM

Hello Keets!

Your theory sounds great, and I can't disagree with it in concept, but the reality of the marketplace is MUCH different -- and reality is all I have to work with when putting coins into my collection.

Tell you what, if making non-FS MS66s isn't so hard, then how about "making" the following dates for me in MS66-PCGS (sorry, but I have no interest in raw coins or other services... it's a Set Registry thing). I'm willing to pay $50 each for any and all of the following dates:

1949-P
1952-P
1954-P
1954-D
1955-P
1958-P
1961-D
1962-D
1963-D
1964-D

And yes, I'm totally serious.

coinkat · October 26, 2003 10:20AM

I looked at the prices and having a guide like this is helpful. Thanks for posting it. I look for Jeffersons on occasion and I tend to think this series is misunderstood and underappreciated. The earlier posts to this thread by keets and DennisH seems to confirm this because I still think real high quality Jeffersons are tougher than most collectors think.

Good luck in your efforts DennisH to obtain the dates you are looking for. I have some raw better dates and I still haven't decided where to send them yet. Putting the registry aside for a moment which is probably a mistake, I still have a perception problem in paying $3-$5 a coin...then spending $15-$25 to have it slabbed and if it doesn't make the grade, you're hosed. Just for an example, take a 1946-s, what is the market price on a MS66 OR 67 that missed Full Steps?

keets · October 26, 2003 11:01AM

hey Dennis

perhaps you misunderstood my response to be harsh, critical or sarcastic. it was meant to be none of those.

truthfully, i have no intention of taking you up on your offer and i hope you don't misinterpret that as me trying to squirm out of my reply that raw non-FS coins can be found easily. the pop report isn't a good reference point to see if the coins are available however, it is a good reference point for understanding that collectors aren't looking to holder them in non-FS grades. that's why as a general rule the pop's for most Jefferson's in non-FS is low compared to other denominations for the same grades without designations.

they are their to be found if you want them, but you need to look for them and then submit them. that's not something for me to do for you, not even with your genrous offer. just as you don't wish to do your own legwork, neither do i. what i am currently assembling, though, is a set of holdered PCGS MS66FS coins, while at the same time a raw set in an Intercept Shield Folder with the emphasis on color and/or luster and little regard to step detail.

i would consider that the majority of Jefferson Nickels which are listed in the pop report as non-FS coins fall into one of these categories:

misunderstanding what's needed for full step.
hoping for a high numerical grade.
tone/eye appeal.

i don't think coins in non-FS grades are submitted for the non-FS grade. it appears to be a consequence of submitters wanting something else. JMHO.

al h.

DennisH · October 26, 2003 11:38AM

Hello again Keets!

Part of my reply amounted to "calling your bluff" in a sense... in the sense I don't necessarily believe that raw high-grade non-FS Jeffs are readily available.

Is it because they haven't been sent in?
Is it because high grade coins don't exist?
Is it because people aren't willing to sell them?

I don't know. But the bottom line is still the same -- I have holes in my collection, I've been looking for them, and I have had very poor luck finding them in PCGS holders.

And I readily admit that I don't have the patience, time, or high frustration threshhold to start submitting coins myself. I've heard too many horror stories from Jeff die-hards who sent in "lock MS66s" and got back 63s and 64s, to have any desire of going down that path.

The other part of my post was to let you know that I'm not a rookie in this endeavour, and I think the values of many high-grade non-FS coins are tremendously understated. I've even enlisted the assistance of a couple of close dealer friends who certify raw Jeffs, and they have had my want list for a couple of years now. The fact that they have not been able to come up with any MS66 early-60s D-mints (for example) tells me those things may be pretty tough to come by.

I decided on the non-FS approach because I have always appreciated grade more than strike, whether it's Jeffs, Franklins or Mercs. And I presumed there had to be a few folks out there who were focusing on FS Jeffs that wouldn't get all of them correct -- thereby creating non-FS coins for me to put into my collection. So far, either the FS folks are a LOT better at grading than I thought, or there are a bunch of dates that just don't come very nice.

By the way... I love this stimulating exchange of opinions, experiences and insight!!

keets · October 26, 2003 12:28PM

And I presumed there had to be a few folks out there who were focusing on FS Jeffs that wouldn't get all of them correct -- thereby creating non-FS coins for me to put into my collection. So far, either the FS folks are a LOT better at grading than I thought, or there are a bunch of dates that just don't come very nice.

hey Dennis

think about that above statement for a moment and you may have the answer to your own questions. if the FS folks are better at grading than you thought, they wouldn't be submitting non-FS coins and creating the ones you're looking for, MS66's. at the same time your presumption that there are a bunch of dates that just don't come very nice is correct, at least with regard to steps. the MS66 coins are there, but not many are interested in finding them. the local dealer recently purchased $200 face value worth of mostly unsearched rolls from 1957-1964 as part of a collection and offered them to me for $205!!! i said no, and i'm a nickel guy!!!

i didn't feel like sorting through those years to not find what i'm looking for, MS66FS coins. had i known about your quest....................i still wouldn't have looked through them!!

some dates are extremely difficult to find with 5 complete unbridged or nicked steps, let alone meet the MS66 grade. some may not exist. MS66 are a different story.

without knowing what dealers you're working with, perhaps you could look elsewhere? start at the BST or some of the known Jefferson guys around here. perhaps you could start buying/searching rolls, study eBay for the sellers who consistently list non-FS coins for sale. maybe you've done that, i don't know.

al h.

MJPHELAN · October 28, 2003 2:59AM

Nice list,

I think the price for the 69-D is too low. I'm not sure that there is a certified FS 69-D by any service? (not counting the 3 step FS coin from ACG or NTC).

Mark

GQ · November 1, 2003 6:01AM

A very interesting debate.....I can't call it a tie because I am in full agreement with Dennis. It couldn't of been said better. Keets is being tough on the issues and I am sure some points are true.

The Mint State of a coin should be that. In a perfect world a MS67 coin should always be better than a MS66 coin....etc. I enjoy Full-Steps but I think they are dealer "add-ons". PCGS seems to be doing a fine job with circ. strike grades between MS64 and MS67. In general I find it very cut and dry. PCGS MS66 is not that easy to make. The higher pops for lower graded full-step coins is for the two point registry bonus (IMHO).

Check out the FS pop numbers in the coins Dennis has listed to buy in MS66....I would call those rare too. I will take a top pop high(er) grade coin any day over a lesser graded FS coin.

Now the FS PCGS designation is another thing. That I have trouble with. If you have solid 6 steppers as many do well then God bless ya but most of my PCGS full steps are a joke. Many of my non designated PCGS FS coins have beautiful steps.

Keep enjoying your coins and Jeffersons.....

Gary

NICKEL TRIUMPH...NO STEPS

GQ · November 1, 2003 6:06AM

I forgot.....

Hello jtwax...always nice to see your work on Jeffersons and Varieties.

Gary

keets · November 1, 2003 7:02AM

hey Gary

my main point throughout this thread has been that Jefferson Nickels, at least those holdered by PCGS, aren't generally collected in non-Full Step grades. i also don't believe that collectors intentionally send them to PCGS in non-Full Step unless they are exceptionally toned or in very high grade. we can argue all day about whether the coins are out there to be found, but there's only one way to decide that on an individual basis-----start looking. which brings Dennis and myself to the point of divergence. he is looking for already holdered coins. to assert that the coins aren't there to be found without having looked isn't a very rational point to make if a collector actually wants to "fill the holes" in a collection.

two other statements in this thread which are confusing to me:
I have always appreciated grade more than strike
I think the values of many high-grade non-FS coins are tremendously understated.
looking at these statements together leads me to believe that most collectors are looking for fully struck coins. i always equate words like "understated" and "underpriced" to mean that a lack of demand is present.

al h.

cladking · November 1, 2003 9:04AM

<< <i>

my main point throughout this thread has been that Jefferson Nickels, at least those holdered by PCGS, aren't generally collected in non-Full Step grades. i also don't believe that collectors intentionally send them to PCGS in non-Full Step unless they are exceptionally toned or in very high grade. we can argue all day about whether the coins are out there to be found, but there's only one way to decide that on an individual basis-----start looking. which brings Dennis and myself to the point of divergence. he is looking for already holdered coins. to assert that the coins aren't there to be found without having looked isn't a very rational point to make if a collector actually wants to "fill the holes" in a collection.
>>

Speaking primarily of the 1965 to date coins it is probably true that the high grade nickels without FS aren't
out there. With most of these later date coins there is a lot of correlation between a coin being mark free and
being well struck. That is, if a coin is well struck it is more likely to be mark free, and if mark free it is more
likely to be well struck. This is not so true with nickels. Only about 2% of these are mark free and less than
5% are full step (highly variable by date). This leaves significant numbers of very nice coins which are not FS,
but as Keets points out they do not get graded, and are still not common.

mnmcoin · November 1, 2003 9:14AM

pontiacinf-I would easily pay at least $1000 for your 71 no s nickel.

morris <><

Full Step Jefferson Pricing

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