Lincoln cent grading analysis evening #2 begins NOW!

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 6:30AM

I'm ready for photo submissions, and will start grading as soon as someone posts pictures. The purpose of this thread is to show people how I arrive at grades for Lincoln cents, going through the entire process step by step. The last time I ran a thread like this last month, it received quite a heavy load of responses, so I decided to run the same style thread again today. For those new to the process of grading, I hope to provide some valuable insight to how the process works for me. By no means is it the ONLY way to grade, it's MY way, and I usually get VERY close.

Please post the largest, clearest photos you can, and mention whether any marks I can see in the photos are dust or scratches on a holder if they are not on the coin. Do not reveal the grade assigned to the coin (if there is one) until after I have analyzed the photo and posted the grade I would give the coin based on the photo. Remember that photos and scans can be somewhat deceiving at times, especially if they are of low quality - so do the best you can so I can do my best. Let the picture posting begin!!

mgoodm3 · October 24, 2003 6:32AM

It's not the evening. I won't be part of this until evening officially begins.

Wolf359 · October 24, 2003 6:42AM

Here's one.

ClausUrch · October 24, 2003 6:43AM

Sweeeeeeet!

topstuf · October 24, 2003 6:44AM

Obverse.......sorry......FRONT........ blurry.

mgoodm3 · October 24, 2003 6:44AM

Doin my part to make the world a better place. Scratch that, couldn't make the pictures come up when I tried several times. And now once I redo them , they come up just fine on the original. I erased the linked pics to avoid confusion.

commoncents · October 24, 2003 6:50AM

This one is in a PCGS holder. The reverse is rotated a little. How much rotation does a reverse have to have to be considered a rotated reverse ?

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 7:14AM

Wolf359 - Nice 1972 DDO.

Obverse - The photo makes any dings, scratches, or hits a bit difficult to see, so I'll do my best with it. I see what looks more like dust than scratches throughout the date, so I'll pass that and continue. I see chatter around the lower bust, meaning the strike was a bit weak, one point. I'll go ahead and take a point for the dark spot near the rim at 3 o'clock. I'll take another one for what appears to be a couple of small hits on the forehead area. Nothing special about the eye-appeal, luster, or surfaces, so I'll go MS67RD obverse.

Reverse - I see something around the first U of UNUM, hard to tell what it is, but it looks like a stain. I'll take one there. Another comes off for a mark on the stairs. A third point for whatever that is in the field above the N - I hope it's dust, if it's not, it would certainly have to take another point. Since I cannot see the flaws or lack thereof, I am stabbing in the dark on this, but I'll go 67RD on the reverse as well.

Overall coin grade, MS67RD.

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 7:21AM

Commoncents - For answers on error questions you'd have to go to someone who studies errors. I only do die varieties and Lincoln cents in general, with no attention paid to errors of any kind.

Your 1974D cent is a nice one - Obverse - The lower bust shows chatter, one point off. The shoulder has a couple of hits, one point off for the pair. A hit in the field above LIBERTY takes another. The thing beneath the bust is a die gouge, nothing taken off or added. I see a number of very small dark spots all over the obverse, so I'll take a point for those collectively. I will also take a point for the condition of the die when the coin was struck, it affects eye appeal with the loss of detail. I'll add one, however, for the color. Four off the obverse, and it's MS66RD.

Reverse - Some rather unsightly spots on the left side of the memorial, two points. A hit on column #5, another point. Roughness around STATES OF indicates machine doubling and/or weak strike. Since it affects eye appeal, one point. We also have spots near the rim under CENT, another point. That's five down, for MS65RD.

Overall grade, MS66RD since the obverse weighs heavier than the reverse.

Wolf359 · October 24, 2003 7:23AM

Wow. I thought it was slightly undergraded. PCGS has it as a 63....

Maybe I should resubmit the darn thing. BTW, Thank you for your expertise.

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 7:31AM

<< <i>Wow. I thought it was slightly undergraded. PCGS has it as a 63....

Maybe I should resubmit the darn thing. BTW, Thank you for your expertise. >>

At that low a grade there has to be something that's not showing up on the photo. It definately LOOKS much better than a 63 in the photos. Hairlines, lack of luster, something that I can't see there. I would suggest that it's at least a 65 - it wouldn't hurt to have it reslabbed. If it even moves up one point, there could be $100 value in it that you couldn't get in the current holder.

Blackhawk · October 24, 2003 7:41AM

Sorry about the photos...what looks like a nick above the E in E PLURIBUS UNUM is a small dark spot.

commoncents · October 24, 2003 7:46AM

PCGS gave it a 65. The obverse has a smudge that looks like someone rubbed their finger over it. The large scan (400%) kind of blends it in with the rest of the coin, if you had it in your hand I'm sure you would've taken another point off. Good job. I only bought it because of the rotation.

bearcave · October 24, 2003 7:56AM

Here's a 71 D. Pics took through cellophane. Not sure what I done different but obverse is as red as reverse. The black spots are on the coin. Not real good shots, hope you can grade with these.

I really think what you are taking the time to do here is super!

WACoinGuy · October 24, 2003 8:13AM

Here's one of mine:

The white dot above Lincoln's eye is on the holder.

WACoinGuy · October 24, 2003 8:14AM

And another:

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 8:20AM

Blackhawk - Your 1961D cent is a bit too blurry for me to accurately grade. From appearances of what I can see, I would say with the spots and blotchy color it would grade no higher than MS63, and would probably go RB. Try to get some better focused shots and I'll see what I can do with them.

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 8:23AM

Bearcave - I don't mean to be crude in any way, but grading a coin through cellophane is like trying to read a book through motor oil. It's just not possible, especially when it's a photo through cellophane. I can tell you one thing - if the spots I see in the obverse pic are on the coin, you're much better off leaving the coin in the packaging. It wouldn't grade above 63 with spots like that.

WACoinGuy · October 24, 2003 8:25AM

Here's two more I have that are scans. Don't know if you can grade those as well. I'm adding these as attachments since I can't get these up to my website right now...

bearcave · October 24, 2003 8:26AM

Not crude in any way, I know the pics didn't come out very well going thru cellophane. Thanks.

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 8:31AM

WACoinGuy - Your 1941S is impressive - both the image and the coin.
Obverse - I see a hit on the cheek, one point. A hit of the shoulder takes another. It appears to have an overall softness due to strike, wirth another point. Many of the spots I see appear to be dust and lint, so I won't take off for them. But if they are indeed on the coin, take another point. From what I can see, three points off, MS67RD.

Reverse - Hits on the C and E of CENT take two points. Another small hit beneatht he I of AMERICA will take another since that's one of the prime focal areas. The spot beneath the O in OF takes another. Nothing to add for the strike, luster, or surfaces that I can see, so three from 70 is 67.

Overall grade is MS67RD.

The 1955 doubled die photo is a bit dark, and is hard to tell whether there is wear on the coin. Just from what I can see on the cheek, it appears there's enough wear to break the surface but not enough to flatten anything. There is still a readily apparent amount of luster on the coin overall, so I would have to tentatively say AU58BN without having more to go on. If it's uncirculated, I would say the spot beneath the shoulder would affect it for two points, and the uneven overall color would afftect it for another two points. At least some hairlines and scratches have to be present that I cannot see, so if uncirculated (saying that I could have misjudged the cheek for wear) it would be a MS65BN.

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 8:40AM

WACoinGuy - Your 1943S cent appears to have some problems. What appears to be a hard scratch under the bowtie would take two points. The shoulder scratch would take another, and yet another for the lapel. The discoloration at the rim next to the mintmark would take a point too. Obverse would be MS65.

Reverse appears to have faired the cratches a bit better, but the corrosion on the motto would take a full four points. It cannot grade above 66 with such a problem. The Scratch on the ON of ONE appears to be rather long...another point.

Overall the coin suffers from having an old, worn out obverse die, and suffers from a weak strike. All toghether I would tack MS64 on this one.

Your 1909VDB cent is quite dark and difficult to see, I'll have to pass on trying to pick out all the tiny flaws required for grading, but I will say that it appears to be an overall MS65RD-MS66RD coin. - Tic marks here and there and an overall uneven tone to the coin leads me to that decision.

WACoinGuy · October 24, 2003 8:41AM

Thanks for the analysis! I bought the 1941-S many years ago as an "MS-60+" I've always thought it was a bit higher than just barely above MS-60 as it does have very nice eye appeal. Many of the marks you noted are indeed on the coin.

The 1955 double die is in an ANACS holder, and I haven't quite figured out how to get the lighting on pictures of coins in ANACS slabs yet. It actually is a bit dark at the top of the coin (similar to the mark at the bottom of the shoulder). ANACS graded it as MS-60.

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 8:43AM

Both of those coins are quite a bit higher than the grades indicated, unless there are problems I cannot see in the photos. They are really nice ones.

WACoinGuy · October 24, 2003 8:48AM

Yeah, the 1943-S is not the prettiest of coins. I bought that one many years ago as MS-65, and I agree that it's not quite that good. There are some flyspecks on the obverse too that don't show up the obverse. Actually ... I guess they do show up (behind Lincoln's head), but they are a little darker and more noticable than in the scan.

The 1909 VDB is another one I bought several years ago as MS-65. The scan on that one is pretty close to the look of the coin -- the most noticable distractions (to me anyway) are the marks above the date and the black spot right behind Lincoln's head. I have that one currently at PCGS for this quarter's free grading. From other pictures of MS-65 1909's I've seen, this one looks pretty similar. We'll see what PCGS thinks...

eminem · October 24, 2003 9:05AM

Surprise serprize surprize...well golly!!! Please grade the 1963o and 1963r and then see if you guessed right!!!

coppercoins · October 24, 2003 9:46AM

Well, let's see eminem - I can be realistic or I can be like PCGS. I think I'll take the realistic approach even though I know without looking at the third link that this is the famous Pr70DCAM coin.

Obverse - Blotchy appearance in the fields around the bust - take two points. Spotting around the obverse (the smaller dark things), take another point. Obverse does show DCAM contrast, so PR67DCAM.

Reverse - No marks, Spots at the rims at 8:00, 11:00, and 5:00, take three points for those, reverse shows only CAM contrast.

My rule on CAM vs. DCAM - it has to show it everywhere to make it anywhere. This coin is a PR67CAM.

eminem · October 24, 2003 10:59PM

Coppercoins.....how the hell did they come up with a 70dcam on this coin??? It is in my opinion the worst example of over overgrading in a PCGS slab I have ever seen. I mean a 1 point overgrade is one thing but a 3 point and and a cam/dcam screw up is mind blowing. I do believe that PCGS is best out there but when someone shells out $38,000 for the only 70dcam before 1976 and it is definately over graded I have to wonder where this came from. Does anyone know who submitted this for grading??? I have no pop report (there may be other 70dcams now before 76) but the high gavel price is due to this being the only one.

TayTay · October 24, 2003 11:59PM

C.D. - great job with these threads. I saw the last one and didn't really think I had anything worth posting, until this morning, when I remembered I had this one:

Charlie

coppercoins · October 25, 2003 1:13AM

Hi Charlie,

Your 1935D is a really nice coin. On the obverse I see six dark spots along the vest and above the tie that are probably carbon. Two points for those. I see a hit on the back of the jawbone, another point. I see something toward the top of the head above the ear that appears to be discoloration, probably either an impurity or a water spot. I won't take a point because I simply can't tell for sure by the photo. I'll tentatively call the obverse MS67BN.

The reverse shows that it was struck from a very old die, which affects the overall sharpness of the design - I'll have to take a point for that. There appears to be a scratch on the O of ONE, another point. There's also a scratch above the N of ONE, another point. There appears to be some chatter on the E of CENT, another point. A tic mark beneath the first A of AMERICA takes another point. Reverse is MS65BN.

The sum of the two sides would reveal an MS66BN grade, and it 'could' possibly be RB depending on how the color came out in the photo - hard to tell.

coppercoins · October 25, 2003 1:16AM

Eminem - The only thing I can say about the 1963 proof cent is that it had to have been doctored to go into a 70 holder, and while it was in the holder the doctoring revealed itself. I don't think any company short of PCI or ACG would call that coin a 70DCAM. As for the DCAM designation, either the reverse photo just doesn't show the contrast the coin really has, or they slipped on this one. There's just not enough contrast there. If I were the owner of the coin I would cash in on a grade guarantee, because there's no chance the coin could realistically be graded a 70.

KAJ1 · October 25, 2003 3:23AM

1jester · October 25, 2003 3:50AM

Coppercoins, first I want to congratulate you on your efforts with this wonderfully enlightening thread! Here's a Lincoln cent:

The mark below the C in Cents is a dust particle, and there is a hair near the right rim.

TayTay · October 25, 2003 6:33AM

A good job on mine considering my lackluster photography skills. Mine is a PCGS 66RD.
Thanks!

jonesy · October 25, 2003 10:02AM

Am I too late??

JRocco · October 25, 2003 11:08AM

Thanks again coppercoins for your great contribution to these boards

jonesy · October 25, 2003 11:42AM

ttt

jonesy · October 25, 2003 7:19PM

jonesy · October 26, 2003 1:56AM

ttt

Lincoln cent grading analysis evening #2 begins NOW!

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