WHY DO YOU THINK THAT BETWEEN ROUGHLY 1975-1990 TONED MORGANS...
wondercoin
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regardless of how pretty, were worth virtually -0- premium whatsoever? Personally, I found this a bit surprising. Why do you suppose this was the reality back then? 
Wondercoin
Edited to: or the perceived reality to many full-time coin dealers.
Wondercoin
Edited to: or the perceived reality to many full-time coin dealers.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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I remember some exceptional toned pieces in various Superior sales back in the mid 80's that brought very nice premiums, also let's not forget the amazing Continental Bank Hoard that surfaced within that time frame. Some pieces from the CBH were some of the most spectacular toned coins in existence, and many sold for very strong premiums. You very seldomly see any of those coins in todays marketplace, apparently they are all put away in strong hands.
dragon
Wondercoin
simple as that.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
and rainbow toned coins were bought and sold at same price as non toned coins.
Wondercoin
Yes, I would say if you want to go back to 1975 or so, there was indeed a far smaller premium for exceptionally toned coins than there is today without a doubt.
I think one reason may be because many of the bags of early -S- mint and -O- mint coins that produced these pieces were not in the marketplace at that time and were still in their bags, and also that nobody really knew just how truly scarce the exceptional ones were, or how to price them correctly for the ones that were trading.
Back then, 10X bid for an MS65 Morgan would have been nearly a world record price for a world class toned piece, today, 10X bid is commonplace and won't get you even close to a monster coin. I think widespread availability in the past 20 yrs. or so has definately helped the price structure.
dragon
Same reason why a color ad in a magazine gathers more attention than a classified ad 2 line text blurb.
and rainbow toned coins were bought and sold at same price as non toned coins.>>>
I do not believe this to be true. I actually personally witnessed some of the -S- mint bags being opened in downtown Chicago and know for a fact that many of the spectacular toned pieces did go for premium prices.
dragon
I also recently spoke with someone who in the early 1990s submitted over 100,000 coins to NGC. Mostly Walkers, Morgans and Saints. Of these 100,000 coins, there were lots of original toned Walkers and Morgans. NO ONE PAID A PREMIUM FOR THOSE, OF ANY KIND. The Walkers were MS64-MS67 and the Morgans were MS63-MS67. That was a fact.
What were dealers and collectors thinking back then
Wondercoin
Camelot
All I can think of is perhaps these toned pieces were nothing special and not really worthy of any significant premium. I think people always remember coins as being nicer than they actually were, and the longer the time frame, the nicer they remember the coins being.
Bear, I did not know old honest Abe, it's not like I'm 170.
dragon
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
Anaconda: Perhaps collectors are more astute now than they where back then.
What's you point with this nonsense? The fact is -- gorgeously toned Morgan dollars sold for large premiums even back in the 1970's when blast white gem's were selling for $3 to $5 each. I know, I was already a full-time dealer then with a well established reputation for handling beautifully toned coins (from many different series). Heck, Wayne Miller used to pay me stupid money for really cool toned dollars and even devoted a section of his legendary book, "The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook" to them, including full color plates (pages 38 through 48). Moreover, I purchased lots of toned dollars from the Continental hoard and paid substantial premiums. Even when blast white coins were all the rage in the 1990's -- there were still collectors willing to pay enormous premiums for monster toned dollars such as my long-time friend and customer the late Bob Brahms who was a well known silver dollar collector. I don't know where you're coming from (or where you're going to) with this thread but your information is definitely flawed. I'd be happy to discuss it with you in greater depth when we get together the end of next week.
Mike
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
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This situation began to change in the 1982-83 period. My records show that I purchased several gem toned dollars which I still own for prices between $250- $275. The price for simialr quality white coins was then probably $50-$75.
As Dragon noted, it is certainly not true that when the CBH was dispersed, gem toned pieces brought no premium. As we do know, about 250 of the finest pieces from that hoard were sold by Superior in 1987. These coins brought enormous premiums over bid, with several going for around $3000. It may be accurate to say that this sale, as opposed to the hoard itself, fueled the interest and premium prices we see continued into the present day for gem toned Morgan dollars.
As an aside, I won 2 lots from that auction sale on coins graded raw as "MS65." These dollars had lovely colors and exceptional luster. However, they were too baggy for my taste and I did not think they qualified as true gem pieces. I sold them for my cost shortly after the sale, which was around $800 for the pair. I guess I somewhat regret that action now, as it would have been nice to have at least one piece from that sale in my collection.
As stated earlier, very few of the CBH dollars have surfaced in the ensuing 16 years. This is partly because a few parties purchased a significant portion of that offering, and they hold them to this day. Moreover, some parties own many supposedly unopened bags, or at least bags not cherry-picked for the gem toned pieces. Obviously, some spectacular toned dollars remain to be "discovered", but my sense from talking to those who helped disperse the hoard is that the actual number of such common date pieces is not likely to adversely affect the toned dollar market.
At the same time, often overlooked in discussions of the CBH is the fact that some of the bags contained currently rare dates. These bags remain unopened or are being dispersed very carefully. So, what we have is a rather peculiar situation. Some collectors are apprehensive that their toned dollar collections might be hurt financially when the hoard is fully dispered. In fact, it is likely to be collectors of certain scarce and rare dates that ultimately could be most adversely affected by the coins in the CBH.
By the way, I just received a PM from a coin dealer - here it is:
"Mitch, I don't want to get into a pissing contest on the boards about toned coins. I was a full time dealer back in 77-79 and, unless the toned morgans were exceptional and I mean exceptional, they did not bring a premium. In fact, you couldn't give them away. The GSA hoard contained many and were considered not of BU quality and were sold as such. I didn't see a rise in the demand for toned until the 1987-1988 timeframe"
NOW, MIKE (Ccoingame) - YOU COMMENT ABOUT WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS - Answer - I have no idea! I just thought it was interesting that several major coin dealers who dealt in Silver Dollars back in the 1970's and 1980's did not perceive there to be any premium at all for nicely toned dollars. Yet, your post suggests there was a thriving market for toned coins at premium prices.
THIS IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF CURIOSITY FOR ME. What was the premium attached to a monster toned Morgan back then? I think many collectors would really enjoy reading about the transition from white coins being in great demand to toned coins, including the time line.
Mike - when we meet, perhaps we can compare notes on the information I have gathered with your personal experience. Maybe even develop an fresh article on the transition from a collecting culture that highly valued white coins to the current culture in love with toned coins. Since I love my toned coins as you love yours, I am not sure there would be much dissagreement between us on the current love/value of toned beauties. But, again, I am curious what collectors from the 1960's and 1970's were thinking.
Wondercoin
PS: Gemtone - I enjoyed reading that. Very interesting
Sounds wonderful to me -- we'll have a good old time.
Mike
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
jom
And, putting aside your viewpoint on how the toned arena may have actually "gotten started", the reality is it is likely here to stay for a long time to come. My fascination is with the timing of the shift and to some extent the metaphysics if you will. Similar to America going from rural to urban - reasons aside, folks are here to stay in the big cities.
Wondercoin
each and there were always a few toned coins available. Several of the dealers
said that they could get premiums for nicely toned coins but my understanding was
that this was generally 10 to 25%. I did hear of higher premiums, but these were
hardly common. I like pretty toning, but few coins have pretty toning to my eye.
I'd be hesitant to pay much premium in most cases, but have seen some spectacular
coins.
<< <i>Dragon: BTW, FYI, toned Morgans from the Continental Bank Hoard did NOT bring a Premium. I spoke to someone who picked thousands upon thousands upon thousands of coins from the hoard >>
This may have been true with dealer to dealer transactions, or Major retailers to dealer transactions, where as you say thousands changed hands. The retail side was a little different. I know of one group of about 100 coins sold in the early 80's that averaged close to $400.00 a coin.
Art: Can I read into this that around this time the premiums for toned coins really began to kick in on the retail level?
Wondercoin
<< <i>Art: Can I read into this that around this time the premiums for toned coins really began to kick in on the retail level? >>
I can't speak for all, but I was paying a premium for real nice toned Morgans before the CB hoard hit the market, which I believe was around 1982. I have never bought a real nice toned dollar that I have not paid a premium for and I have been into toned dollars for 30+ years.
Art, How can that be possible as Iwog has informed us that there were no beautifully toned coins prior to 1995. Perhaps you just thought you were into toned coins for the past 30 yrs.
dragon
If anyone tells you they were able to pick through many coins from the CBH and didn't have to pay a significant premium for some of the spectaularly toned pieces, one of three things comes to mind:
1) They were allowed to pick through the leftover coins after all the best coins were already removed and dispersed
2) They had purchased so many coins in a large lot that they were allowed some of the better pieces as part of the deal
3) They are just not telling the truth or only partially telling the truth, or their memory of the events is foggy
Again, I can say as a firsthand fact that some of the most spectacular monster toned Morgans in existence came out of the CBH, as well as a good portion of many of the MS67 and better common date -S- and -O- mint dollars now in PCGS/NGC holders. That was really one amazing group of dollars!
dragon
<< <i>Art, How can that be possible as Iwog has informed us that there were no beautifully toned coins prior to 1995. Perhaps you just thought you were into toned coins for the past 30 yrs. >>
Howard:
Maybe he just wasn't looking hard enough.