Just Miss Designation Coins....Pricing Discussion.

Fairlaneman · October 18, 2003 9:22AM

The series I collect is Merc Dimes. A Full Band coin can bring some very high money for certain dates. Frankly the money some of these dates bring in FB is way way out of my league. The problem that is encountered is what to pay for one of these dates if it has a very nice strike but just not quite there in reguard to the bands. Would you think a person should only pay Gray Sheet prices for these just miss coins or should the person pay maybe 50% over Gray Sheet ? Is there another formula that would work ?

Some examples would be a 18D a 19S and the 45P. A 18D graded MS65 is a $650 coin but in MS65FB it is a coin worth upto $30,000 or more. The 19S is a $1350 coin in MS66 but there is No Value stated by PCGS for MS66FB because one has not been certified by them. The 45P in MS66 is a $60 coin but add the FB to the slab and you have a $20,000 coin. These examples would suggest to me that one of these dates if found with 90% bands should sell for much more than straight MS grade but much less than the complete FB coin.

Your thoughts about Merc Dimes or any other series that has a strike designation, price wise for the just miss coins.

Ken

fountainheadgold · October 18, 2003 9:28AM

Not being a serios collect of mercs i never gave it much thought, but I do agree they maybe should have degrees of full band, some coins probable miss by 5 % . it should be worth more than one which misses by 95%

fountainheadgold · October 18, 2003 9:29AM

I wish I had checked my spelling

wingedliberty · October 18, 2003 9:33AM

Ken:
What you say makes perfect sense and I practice it all the time. Since we share a passion for the same series, you know the kind of adrenaline we feel when we see a 1945 dime that is 2/3 or more FB, but not 2/3 the price of the full FB.
In otherwords, if you can cherrypick a 80% FB 1945 dime and pay straight price for it or a slight premium, thats fine as long as it meets your collecting parameters. I collect duplicate Mercs, so its never a question of settling for a single 45 with 50% FB or a single 1939S that has to have 100% FSB, etc.
I simply love exceptional Mercs and don't mind having multiples with varying attributes.

Enjoy the hobby.

291fifth · October 18, 2003 10:06AM

The price you pay should be based on what the dealers will pay. If it is not FB then they pay for not FB. So should you. "Almost there" coins will cost you a lot of money when it comes time to sell if you pay big premiums for them.

BigD5 · October 18, 2003 10:14AM

You won't get much premium for "just missed" designation coins when you go to sell them, MOST OF THE TIME. So, as 291fifth stated, try not to pay a premium for them.

I have seen premiums paid for RB designated copper, that is very close to full red in color. I think FB Merc's are a different story. The bands are either there, or they are not. Same goes with FH on SLQ's. I've seen "80% full head" descriptions in price guides for some SLQ's, but I would think you would have a hard time pushing for extra dough on those.

FC57Coins · October 18, 2003 10:22AM

A similar thing happens with the mainstay of my collection, Franklin Halves. The difference between FBL and non-FBL coins is sometimes ten-fold. When you look at the overall coin, there are some non-FBL coins which, by virtue of a poorly placed nick, do not make FBL, and thus their price plummets. I have a stunning 1962P Franklin half in MS65 which, due to a minute planchet flaw right on the bottom bell lines, misses being an FBL. However, as you look at the coin overall for strike characteristics, you'd swear it was struck with proof dies. Now, try to sell this coin, and it would bring grey sheet bid at best. It's FBL counterpart would go for $1500 or more. There are some price breaks on FBL coins depending on whether they are PQ or "just made it" type coins, but I don't see the same price differentiation the other way. This is why in my opinion, non designated coins, whether FB Mercs or FBL Franklins are an excellent buy at this time. These are genuine gems.

The only series where I think the pricing does take into account more than just the designation is Standing Lib Quarters. Let's see if we can get some collectors of those beauties to chime in... Excellent thread!

Fairlaneman · October 18, 2003 10:54AM

The 45P seems to bring a premium if it has some sort of middle band split. Heritage actually had one in the Long Beach Auction, or maybe it was Baltimore, that brought close to $400 and was graded MS65. Thats about 20 times what a regular MS65 coin would bring. That coin is what has had me thinking about the just miss coins. The 45P is the most recognized for not having bands but within the series other examples are almost if not more rare than the 45P. Right now there is also a just miss coin, 45P, on a well known Web Site that has a asking price of $1900.

Maybe the Grading Services need to put the amount of split on the slab.

Then the pricing could go from there.

Maybe these coins also should be valued like a pristine classic car. First you start out with the MS66 Car and then a premium for a larger engine is attached to the car untill you get to the real Hot Rod version which would be the FB Car

Ken

cladking · October 18, 2003 11:50AM

The just missed designation coins may well be worth a premium in many cases.
There is likely more opportunity for cherry picking in the very well struck coins
which miss the designation by either a lot or a little. These are probably an even
better value in the very high grades since they'll go for a fraction of the coins with
the designation in many cases.

Coins with the designation and a nearly full strike may well also be underappreciated
in many cases.

CarlWohlforth · October 19, 2003 12:20AM

When I was looking at Standing Liberty Quarters I really wanted fully struck rivets on her shield and close but not Full Head. I found one at no premium. In fact it was hard finding a coin with fully struck rivets even when they did have the FH designation.

I would pay a small premium for coins like that even though it would be hard to get a premium when selling.

grip · October 19, 2003 12:52AM

Intresting comments,I dont think I would pay any premium for something thats not there.I have a few lotto tickets that came close,would you pay me more than there worth?

.Al

tradedollarnut · October 19, 2003 1:11AM

IMO, the "all there or none" philosophy is a danger sign highlighting the foolishness of paying such large premiums for a small strike area. If there were truly any lasting value in the designations, then an almost as rare 'almost there' FB or FH would command a significant premium, not a small one.

How much would you pay for an MS64 that walked and talked like an MS65 but just missed?

EVillageProwler · October 19, 2003 4:19AM

How much would you pay for an MS64 that walked and talked like an MS65 but just missed?

It's scary that I, too, thought of expanding the "near miss" issue to beyond a strike-based designation.

The issue of FMV for a near miss FB gem 1945 Merc is akin to the issue for an 1872S dollar in super-slider ChAU59+++++. For both, the issue is one of condition rarity, For both, the issue involves the FMV decline of a coin after examination of a minute area on the coin.

Let's expand this even further and talk about the 1877 Trade Dollar. In MS64, it is hardly a rarity (relative to the series). Yet, in full GEM, it is a fabulous rarity. One of the Big Two have yet to grade a specimen in GEM! So, what is the FMV of a MS64.9+++++++ specimen that will never be a 65 due to minor weakness of strike?

I find this issue to be an excellent one for discussion, but I think we should examine it inclusive of all types of "near miss" issues and not just involving FB's and the like. Additionally, I think true specialists will not hesitate to pay strong premiums over the average specimen if they feel the coin is otherwise all there. And, I'm not talking about the designation on a holder, as most specialists learn to assess on their own.

EVP

fcloud · October 19, 2003 4:31AM

As a collector, I haven't paid extra for coins with 90% or more bands. I often wonder why most of the series 99.999% bands bring no premium over 100%. The only two exceptions I have seen bring a premium are 1939-S and 1945 (my experience only). I have a 1945 MS66 with about 25 to 30% bands. I thought this was just a typical 1945 when I purchased it. I now know it is hard to come by. I don't know if the coin would bring a premium or not, I am just happy it is mine.

Tony

jom · October 19, 2003 4:41AM

It is an interesting discussion. To me the market for "full-whatever" is over-hyped. So to that end the near-misses are of great value. Where else can you get an almost FB 45-P at $200 or $400. That is a steal, IMO.

As to worrying about what a dealer will pay: Why? Why not sell it to another collector of Merc Dimes who appreciates the "nearness" of it? With the interenet and message boards such as this it probably wouldn't be too hard to find collectors like Fairlane of WingedLiberty (or jom, in the past) who buy these.

As to trying to the strike designations themselves: IMO, it is best to observe the OVERALL strike. If that strike (regarless of how it's designated) effects the EYE APPEAL then thre is no basis for paying a premium. In fact, it should be bought at a discount, no? So when I see many FH SLQ's with "FH" (even true FH's) that do NOT have full shield I have never understood how one can pay a big premium for that. BUT...if this same piece has some GREAT TONING or wonderful LUSTER it might be worth more. Again, it is the OVERALL EYE APPEAL that should determine the price not necessarily how it's graded. Grade and quality are not necessarily the same thing.

jom

fcloud · October 19, 2003 4:57AM

Here is some more food for thought.

What about 1939-S or 1945 in AU55, or AU58 with full bands? Whould these deserve a price premium?

cladking · October 19, 2003 5:10AM

<< <i>Here is some more food for thought.

What about 1939-S or 1945 in AU55, or AU58 with full bands? Whould these deserve a price premium? >>

Excellent question. There is likely lots of room for cherry picking in these
areas also. What about four step Jeffersons? Some of these are very
elusive with a few steps. Surely some collectors will desire steps even if they
are less than full or the coin has some circulation. The steps are a high point
so they will generally be worn before the coin gets in low grade.

Steve27 · October 19, 2003 5:18AM

Close is only good in horseshoes, hand grenades, and atom bombs. Since most interest in high grade FB or FBL coins is for the Registry, you'll get no premium for "almost."

tradedollarnut · October 19, 2003 5:52AM

Since most interest in high grade FB or FBL coins is for the Registry, you'll get no premium for "almost."

Well, that about says it all - doesn't it?!

moosesr · October 19, 2003 6:16AM

I still don't understand why a small hit in the area of FB FBL or FS would keep the coin from receiving the designation

I thought the main purpose of these designations was to indicate the fullness of strike of the coin when it left the mint. So, it looks like a small hit would just affect the numerical grade of the coin. It looks like a beter designation to put on the slab would just be full strike or percentage of full strike.

Charlie

foodude · October 19, 2003 6:56AM

... still don't understand why a small hit in the area of FB FBL or FS would keep the coin from receiving the designation

At least for PCGS, a a small hit in the FBL area will not keep a coin from getting an FBL desingation. A larger hit will, as would even a small hit that covers what appears to be an incomplete spot in the lines.

cladking · October 19, 2003 7:06AM

Ultimately it is collectors who determine what a full strike or a nearly full strike
are worth. Everytime a collector spends money for a coin he is voting for what
he finds to be of value. If collectors decide that a designation or some other as-
pect of condition is important then eventually prices will reflect this. What people
value is determined by their beliefs, so what we believe is the determining con-
sideration in the long run. Those who collect for enjoyment and as a diversion
will at least gain this. Those who enjoy their collections will learn what real value
is as part of their education.

Just as in the long run it's the coin that determines value, in the long run it's con-
dition that determines relative value for individual coins and dates. Just missed
coins can certainly represent good conditions and excellent value at today's prices.

Just Miss Designation Coins....Pricing Discussion.

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