SMS VS NON-SMS LINCOLN 1965-1967

pow012000 · October 7, 2003 12:43PM

I BEEN HEARING A LOT OF BAD THINGS ABOUT THIS, THAT PEOPLE SEND IN NON-SMS AND PCGS GRADES THEM SMS. FOR US THAT KNOW AND THATS ALL......(NOT WORTH ANYTHING IF IT HAS A SMS ON IT MS66 AND LOWER GRADES).....CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE ON 1965 AND 1966 LINCOLNS?????? HAS ANYONE HAD A BAD DEALING WITH THIS????? THANKS DAVID

Steve · October 7, 2003 1:01PM

David, first of all, don't SHOUT!!!. Don't use your CAP key. Thanks.

Now, you probably know that if you have a real nice 1965, 1966 or 1967 Lincoln cent that grades nice and high, like MS67 or MS68 you can get big bucks for it. But if the coin was produced for the Special Mint sets of those years, and PCGS says it is a SMS coin, well then the MS67 or MS68 won't get you such great big bucks. Now the COIN is still a real nice coin, right? You want it in your collection, right? It's just that you want it to be a circulation coin and not one of those SMS coins. You probably figure you have a first strike from a regular circulation coin, right? PCGS disagrees, right? What can you do about it. Well, you could spend some more money and send it in for review. Problem is, it is still probably going to come back SMS. Sorry. Remember, its all about the money, right? Good luck. Steve

melikecoins · October 7, 2003 4:39PM

I have six

Glen

291fifth · October 7, 2003 9:16PM

I recently sold my MS67 SMS cents for 1965, 66 & 67. Two were PCGS and one was ICG. The 65 was PCGS and brought $25 from a dealer. The 66 was and ICG and brought $5.61 from an eBay bidder. The 67 was a PCGS coin and brought $8 from the same well-known dealer in moderns who bought the 1965.
My loss on all of the coins was huge!

This is a good example of why you should not be wasting money slabbing modern items like this. Spend your hard earned money on coins that have real rarity, not garbage like SMS coins.

pow012000 · October 7, 2003 10:05PM

Thank you , but is there any way of telling on the Lincolns for SMS vs NON-SMS???

cladking · October 8, 2003 6:02AM

<< <i>I recently sold my MS67 SMS cents for 1965, 66 & 67. Two were PCGS and one was ICG. The 65 was PCGS and brought $25 from a dealer. The 66 was and ICG and brought $5.61 from an eBay bidder. The 67 was a PCGS coin and brought $8 from the same well-known dealer in moderns who bought the 1965.
My loss on all of the coins was huge!

This is a good example of why you should not be wasting money slabbing modern items like this. Spend your hard earned money on coins that have real rarity, not garbage like SMS coins. >>

It would seem pretty apparent that you don't care at all about moderns and
bought these because you figured you could make a few quick bucks. It's also
apparent that you know nothing about the coins and shopped for a good price.

This sounds like an excellent way to lose money. I'm sure if you had done even
a little homework you'd have known that the '67 is relatively common in high
grade. (a buffalo nickel this common would sell for much more though). You'd
also have found that many coins in second and third tier holders are quite over-
graded just like with the classic coins.

291fifth · October 8, 2003 6:27AM

Cladking-

These coins were part of a one-a-year set which I have now broken up. The only modern coins which I feel have any true value are the commemoratives, particularly the gold commems. The gold commems get most of their value from:

1. Solid collector demand for commem type coins. Many issues actually have low mintages!

2. The intrinsic value of the gold, which, for some of the issues of the 1980's, makes up most of the value.

Except for the registry set people chasing the "70's" this market is not overly influenced by grade rarity since most of the coins are "69's" when they come from the mint. If one of the coins I have sent in for grading happens to come back a "70" I will be happy to have it...but I personally wouldn't pay a premium for it.

I traded all of my PCGS/NGC modern Lincolns for gold modern commems. I lost money on many, but not all of the Lincolns (a few PCGS coins made money). I was happy to be rid of the Lincolns and delighted to have the gold commems. As a matter of fact, the final modern gold proof commem type coin for my set arrived in this afternoon's mail, a PCGS PR69DCAM 1996-W Olympic Cauldron issue.

Mark · October 8, 2003 6:41AM

pow01200:

I have asked David Hall a couple of times on the Q&A board questions about SMS coins, including the question of how to tell the difference. I also asked what he knew about 1964 SMS coins. He hasn't (yet?) responded. Given that I asked these questions several months ago, I don't think he will respond, which is too bad because I'd love to hear what such a knowledgable person has to say. Perhaps if you ask him on the Q&A board, HRH will respond?

I sure hope so, because I sure would like to know a fraction of what he does about coins!

Mark

FanOfModerns · October 8, 2003 6:47AM

If PCGS says it is a SMS coin then it is. If PCGS says it is not a SMS coin then it is not. They are the experts and we should respect their opinion. They can obviously tell the difference. They are the best.

pow012000 · October 8, 2003 12:53PM

Mark i have ask David Hall last night on the forum....will have to wait and see if he will respond....ill let you all know

pow012000 · October 13, 2003 2:04PM

David Hall never answer me...

bushmaster8 · October 13, 2003 11:53PM

It has been shown absolutely in several previous threads that pcgs can NOT tell the difference between the two in many cases. David Hall (Blessed Be His Name) will not answer this question on the forums. The same question has been posted to Him numerous times, but he is too busy wiping egg off his face to answer it. I think PCGS is embarrassed by their failure to differentiate the two--that is the only plausible way to explain their continued silence on this subject.

perfectstrike · October 14, 2003 12:52AM

I'll take a shot at this. There are a couple of us that have had these Lincolns incorrectly attributed by PCGS. Mine has been corrected and I know one more has also been corrected.

Identification isn't all that hard. I've found two SMS cents in OBWs. They just jump right out. The edge sharpness and thickness is about the same as the 1940/50s proofs. That's my first check. Next is the fields. The SMS fields are almost always smoother, even with well used obverse dies. It makes the color look different. Business strike fields from new obverse dies are about equal to the SMS used obverse dies. That's when it gets hard. Go to the reverse. The SMS reverses don't usually have the weak steps that the 60's business strikes do. I've never checked that many SMS cent reverses, I could be off base on this point.

I'd be interested in coppercoins thoughts.

perfectstrike

cladking · October 14, 2003 6:08AM

It is almost always possible to tell an SMS coin from a business strike. It is always
possible to tell a small sample of SMS from business strikes. It gets much more dif-
ficult when you are looking at individual specimens of the very best of the business
strikes. There are numerous complicating factors, like the SMS dies being reused for
regular issues and the various experimental SMS coins. When all is said and done, it
may not be possible to difinitively separate these in all cases, and there may be cases
where they were issued incorrectly. I have seen 1965 sets with coins that didn't look
to be SMS.

keets · October 14, 2003 6:29AM

i can tell with absolute certainty that some coins are SMS's-------buy the ones with nice looking cameo devices!!!! past that, as has been explained ad-nauseum, the difficulty with getting these coins graded is that many were broken out of sets and ended up in circ rolls. now after many years, submitters are stumbling across them and seem to feel that just because they have been taken from a roll they are not SMS issues. that's why the complaint is always that PCGS grades MS submission coins as SMS and not vice-versa. in the overwhelming majority of cases, i would assume that they have it correct. sorry, perhaps the blame needs to be placed on the Hunt Brothers!! not the various grading services.

.........aside to 291fifth---------statements like The only modern coins which I feel have any true value are the commemoratives seem to indicate a bitter ignorance borne of your getting beat when you sold in hopes of a profit. there are, of course, many modern rarities which are safe. my collection of Jefferson Nickels might contain many abundant coins, the 1976-current PR69DCAMs. but it also contains some safe ones, like the DCAM 1965-1967 coins. with your Lincoln Cents, i will assure you that any SMS DCAM you can find and buy will reward you down the road. the problem only arises with these when you buy average, high grade non-Cameo coins and expect to flip-for-gain in the short term. a gem DCAM SMS Lincoln Cent-----if you can find one and buy it-----is a no brainer-gainer down the road. put your smart money there and your quick profit money in the Modern Gold Commems. then hold on tight and wait for 2008-9 at the very earliest.

and remember, you heard it here first!!

al h.

SMS VS NON-SMS LINCOLN 1965-1967

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