Dipped coin test, can you spot it? (It was the BTW)
Iwog
Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
Inspired by a previous thread, I've decided to test if anyone can tell a dipped coin from a scan. One of these coins was dipped white, the other one came from an original roll (complete with endcaps, a roll that I still own) and has never been touched. Both coins have been in their respective slabs for about 2 years and both photos are absolutely pure with no color or light changes. Tell me how sure you are. (Example: I'm 75% sure this coin was dipped) Reverse photos.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
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Just because I'm confident doesn't make me right.
A quote from my wife.
ooops that's right, can't see the edge of a coin in the slab. pity.
K S
K S
a mild criticism of this test is that even someone who is blind would have a 50% chance of being correct! regardless of the results, a more accurate test might have as an example 10 coins, where one was dipped and the others weren't, where one wasn't dipped and the others were, where all weren't, etc, etc, etc................DK raises an interesting point that i don't necessarily agree with, obviously implying that with a dipped coin the rim will be darker. flawed thinking since many undipped coins also possess this quality. roll coins exhibit this quality.
the key to this whole issue is the simple fact that when a company such as PCGS BB's a coin for cleaning, it is generally for two reasons, both grouped together with the term harshly cleaned or something of that nature. either the coin is stripped of it's luster or the surface is abraded in an easily detected manner. a properly conserved coin will not exhibit these qualities. the majority of members who maintain that they can tell a dipped coin may indeed have a hunch, but that's generally based on the fact that "a 70 year old coin shouldn't be blast white" which may/may not be true. i'm of the opinion that a properly stored coin should remain tone-free for a longer period than most would admit. heck, members have posted here of opening sealed bags of Morgans with brilliant 100 year old coins inside.
IMHO, if someone is able to discern which of the posted coins is dipped/undipped, it proves little about the coin and even less about an ability to detect a dipped coin.
al h.
DIPPED or UNDIPPED, that is the question!!
<< <i>DK raises an interesting point that i don't necessarily agree with, obviously implying that with a dipped coin the rim will be darker. flawed thinking since many undipped coins also possess this quality. roll coins exhibit this quality. >>
on the contrary, a dipped coin will show a lighter edge than what you'd expect from rolled coins. i've examined this phenomenon in detail, in my relentless pursuit of weeding dipped coins out of my collection (ahem).
i'll discuss this re: silver coins, but the same holds true for copper. if you have an original roll handy , go ahead & pop it open, & examine the edges of the coins. you will find that while the coins are blast white, the edges will in fact be a dull grey color, as they have come in contact w/ the paper roll. furthermore, for reeded coins, the most-raised portion of each reed will be a different "shiny-black" grey then the innermost area of the reeds.
when the coin is dipped, the edge will lose the darker color & become silver like the rest of the coin. furthermore, the reeds will take on a consistent coloration. i am not making this up! having really tried this experiment multiple times.
i submit to you that where your talking about dipped coins from original rolls, you will be able to detect the dipped coins 95% of the time or more.
also, there IS something about the surface of an un-dipped coin from an original roll that gives it a frosty look, that is easily damaged by dipping the coin. i bet that, based strictly on experience, seeing 2 coins in-hand, you could accurately detect the dipped coin at least 75% of the time.
K S
I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but there are a lot of people who make claims of originality/cleaning that are simply guesses. Dealers are famous for saying "undipped white" or "all original surfaces" in their descriptions when there is absolutely no way to verify this.
In any event, it gives me a chance to show my highest grade available 1951-S. (I haven't checked the population reports lately tho)
<< <i>Dog was trying to make in the other discussion, in fact he claimed that it's easier to tell a dipped coin in a scan. >>
Are your images in this thread from a scanner, or from a camera? Big difference imo. That's why my post in the thread you reference mentioned SCANNER. Thank you
<< <i>The purpose of this thread is to imperfectly demonstrate that it is IMPOSSIBLE to identify a properly dipped coin from an "original" coin >>
nope, i don't agree. it may be impossible to ALWAYS identify a properly dipped coin, but more often then not, i think it IS POSSIBLE - assuming of course the coin is of a vintage that it would no longer be blast white / blast red. ie if it were a 2002 roosevelt, i probably couldn't have a clue if it was dipped or not. but 1902, danged right it's possible - though not guaranteed.
like i said, in the example you provided us here, the slab prevents us from examining what is way way by far the more important of the 3 sides for determining originality - the edge. it is another reason i do not like slabs. i say, crack out both coins for us & give us good digi-pics of the edges, then let's see if we can figure it out.
K S
<< <i>dude, you don't check for a dipped coin by looking at the obv. or rev - you look at the EDGE >>
I thought dipping was to dip a Q-tip in dip and gently apply it to the coin, therefore no dip would be put on the edge. How would looking at the edge help out to determine if a coin were dipped?
Tom
K S
I thought the whole reason for avoiding dipped coins is they aren't as attractive as "Original" coins? If you have to look at the edge, I think you're missing the point.......
Tom, since the edge is generally not protected in rolls, holders, etc. it is almost always dark even if the coin is blast white. Since I stated that one of these coins was taken from an original roll, it would have a toned edge while a dipped coin would have a white edge. I'm confused however since it now seems a coin coming from a good neighborhood is more important than what the coin actually IS.
hey Iwog
though i may have expressed it poorly, i agree with your above statement 100%. and although DK will argue till the cows come home, as a person who dips coins, i can attest that a dipped coin's edges DO NOT DIP BLAST WHITE LIKE THE REST OF THE COIN, BUT TEND TO REMAIN NOTICEABLY DARKER.
al h.
<< <i>a dipped coin's edges DO NOT DIP BLAST WHITE LIKE THE REST OF THE COIN, BUT TEND TO REMAIN NOTICEABLY DARKER >>
i agree, & would add however, that experience will teach you how to almost infallibly identify by it's edge when a coin's seen dipped, because THE EDGE WILL LIGHTEN. not to the extent of the surfaces, but it WILL lighten.
like i said, look at the reeds of a coin from a roll that's dipped under VERY strong magnification.
K S
Now to go back and read this thread.......
Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
I don't agree with the "impossible." If you mean by "properly dipped coin" a coin where it is difficult to tell that the dipping took place you create the definition to get the answer you desire. And part of the problem isn't so much with the coins that have been "properly dipped", where it is difficult to tell (although in the vast majority of cases they are not my preference) but the many coins that are ruined when they are improperly dipped, meaning the dipping is quite evident.
As long as you posted it I gots ta guess. It gotsta be da BTW that's had the bath. I can spot a dipped coin a mile away. What do I win?
Washington-Carver: 5
Booker T. Washington: 5
A few 100% sure on both coins.
It's beginning to look like my hypothesis is secure on this one.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The BTW coin is dipped white as a ghost, while the WC is from an original roll and untouched. The luster on both is excellent and I doubt anyone could tell in person, scan, or digital photograph that the Booker T. was cleaned.
Conclusion: Dip that gunk off your coins, it's embarassing.
<< <i>Hey, thanks for stealing me thread!! Your as bad as that Karl dork!!disgust; As long as you posted it I gots ta guess. It gotsta be da BTW that's had the bath. I can spot a dipped coin a mile away. What do I win? >>
why, a new colon, of course!
K S
And I loves 'dem shiny, shiny coins.
Whatever you say Iwog......
Translation: The few random people who took a guess from a computer pic of two coins at one angle and under subdued lighting and shadows couldn't tell, so therefore there IS no way to tell.....very compelling arguement, LOLOL!
dragon
At times dipping may be very difficult to spot with the unaided eye and low magnification. On the other hand given the right equipment the changes in the surface metal that take place during a dip can be observed. Substitute the word difficult for impossible and you'll get no argument from me. But if you insist on the using the word impossible then I'll insist on telling you you're wrong and be correct in doing so
Well of course you could DrWho, you could also probably paint some rocks with gold paint and pass them off as gold nuggets.
dragon
Hmmm.....imagine that!
Iwog, How could you POSSIBLY know this for a fact unless you know exactly what I have in my collection?????
The truth is I actually have very few toned coins left in my collection as I have sold most of the better ones in the past couple of years to fund other purchases, and toned coins now probably represent less than 3-5% of my collections value.
Why do you make statements that you can't possibly back up?
dragon
good thread and a good point that it illustrates, but you're really wasting your effort if you're hoping for acknowledgement from some.
al h.
Dragon accepts that there is no way to tell a properly dipped coin from an original white one.
Is that better or did you accidently forget what we were talking about?
dragon
Hey!!! Did you know that my dogs cannot conclusively tell the difference between fries from Burger King or McDonalds, therefore there IS no difference......hey!! I like this new Iwog logic.
dragon
extensive variety of words and commands. Any dog trainer will tell you this.
In fact you can even talk to bears, but only on the Forum.
Camelot
where did that cheap shot come from?? feeling guilty or put upon?? believe me, if i have a direct comment to shoot your way, i'll address it specifically at you. in the meantime, kick back with a nice bottle of wine, a cuban cigar and enjoy some chess!!
al h.