Question about confidentiality agreements, for anyone who knows, especially any ex-graders
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
Has PCGS or NGC ever required a potential employee/ coin grader to sign a confidentiality agreement as a condition of employment?
Just curious.
Just curious.
0
Comments
They do prohibit them from dealing in coins although many of them get around it one way or another.
GSAGUY
P.S. Thanks for posting that pic of my Temptress.......I always enjoy seeing her in lights.
The grading results show up in the population report eventually - maybe not on the esoteric varieties ?
I was not required to sign any such agreement when I joined NGC. In fact, in my case, my "employment agreement" with NGC was extremely informal, as the two (then) owners and I, already knew each other well and had been friendly for several years. Our agreement was based almost entirely upon mutual trust.
Why do you ask?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Well, it would seem to me that there would be all kinds of reasons to obtain a confidentiality agreement from the graders.
One reason is to prevent the dissemination of potentially faulty recollections.
Firstly, we have to start with the assumption that humans get things screwed up all the time.
So, here's a hypothetical situation: (H-Y-P-O-T-H-E-T-I-C-AL!!!!!!!!)
Some ex-grader at PCGS or NGC might have a recollection that some grading service owner or CEO walked into the grading room one day with a box of coins and a none too pleasant demeanor, being upset about the grades assigned to the coins. Maybe they were too loose, maybe they were too tight. Doesn't matter. But, the grader for some reason recalls that the owner/CEO made some off-handed comment about who owned the coins and how the grades needed to be changed. The grader after leaving the employment of the grading service becomes possessed of an irrisitable urge to communicate this information.
Needless to say, objective grading means disassociating the owners from the coins, something that some people think does not exist. (How many times have we heard that "who" submits the coins has something to do with the grades that they are assigned??)
Another reason is competitive advantages - what kind of plastic do they use, where do they get it, how do they test their graders, do they test their vision, what kind of lighting do they use, do they require uniformity of lighting, how do they prevent theft, etc., etc., etc.
So anyway, that's one reason why i ask - kinda like a test of the grading companies' business acumen.
Another reason, is if employees of the grading companies were occasionally involved in what is known in the legal world as "shenanigans" also called felonious conspiracy to defraud, it would seem to me that the owners might want to do damage control - handle it in house, keep it confidential, keep it from going to the media, you know, facilitate it, cover it up....the motivations here are multifarious but all come from the assumption that bad things happen and keeping the media away from it is good.
It seems that hard (verifiable) bad news about the two preeminant grading companies (PCGS and NGC) is rare - maybe nonexistent, but the talk on the street is a constant buzz about what really goes on. We see quite a bit of smoke but rarely any fire.
Maybe confidentiality agreements are in place and somehow they are making them work.
My opinion is that there aren't any confidentiality agreements and that the grading companies are doing a good job in the areas that i refer to, namely keeping their noses and the noses of their employees clean, in an ethical sense.
I bet that opinion surprises you, eh?
Anyway, to substantiate my loosely held opinions about what goes on, i sought to find out whether confidentiality agreements are obtained. Of course, the best confidentiality agreements contain a clause that states that the existence of the confidentiality agreement must remain confidential.
adrian
P.S. Wouldn't it be great if all thoughts and questions could be thoroughly addressed with just a few words? Well, not all of them can!
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For example, how hard would it be to find work in the numismatic community if you were a former grader and were out there bad mouthing your former employer or were freely giving out deposition testimony. I think most would shy away from hiring you. This is only natural, but as an employer, you always feel apprehensive about hiring known whistle blowers. And if that rather large third party grading company spread the word that if you hired that particular individual, it might be difficult to continue to do business with your firm, this also might dissuade one from speaking up.
What about bodily harm. Perhaps some might be afraid of being found in a dark alley after a show by a guy named Vito who is loosely tied to a major third party grading service. Think of it as a gentle reminder to be quite.
Or perhaps, these grading services only hire "insiders" and "friends" so that they are assured that none of the "shenanigans" ever do get revealed. Perhaps this is why it is difficult to find really qualified individuals to grade coins for the major third party services. I would certainly want a "friend of mine" working in my grading room if there were somethings going on that were not on the up and up.
Just my thoughts to Adrian's rather interesting hypothetical.
Michael
This is of course not a realistic expectation, because if I was submitting a Sac/State Qtr. mule and the Secret Service decided tommorrow that its an illegal issue to own, then PCGS and NGC would have no choice but to disclose the submitter's name and so would any grader working for them, regardless of what documentation they signed.
So the question is this: How confidential is any confidentiality agreement when it really comes down to it. The only documentation that I see really binding in a court of law is if I slander my employer( ie. PCGS/NGC). This is the case with many employer/employee relationships. ie. Tiger Woods signs a contract with Nike, I am sure it says somewhere in the fine print. "You hereby promise not to talk bad about Nike, under penalty of libel,slander, etc,etc,etc, etc, etc).
I guess if I was submitting a 1964 Peace dollar or another 1933 Saint, I would really want to have a private lunch with Hall or Saltzberg first and say " Look, if the Secret Service calls, tell them Adrian submittied it, but ship the coins to me!"
You are thinking too much like a lawyer!
confidentiality agreements are a nice idea but human nature negates their effectiveness. Ask Joe and Val Wilson.
"shenanigans", I love that word, are also a part of human nature called greed. Such "shenanigans" would not surprise me as the industry is already filled with shady dealings.
People will risk prosecution if the perceived reward is comensurate in their mind to the risk.
Employers who require such an agreement know it is simply a deterent and a potential tool for prosecution.
Interesting.
There are two reasons why i don't get involved in conspiracies to defraud.
The first reason is i try to be a good person. I want to be able to sleep well at night and think highly of myself.
The second reason is no matter what you want to keep a secret, most people simply can't keep a secret. And, the worst enemy is a friend who you trusted but who turned out to not be trustworthy.
Many a person has been "sunk" by what used to be an old friend. Even many spouses and children will turn on their loved ones if the price is right.
That's why i think the grading services are keeping their noses clean - can you imagine the class action law suit that would develop if someone came forward and testified against either of the grading services with testimony that proved that they could be bribed or were guilty of some other conspiracy?
Needless to say, judgments would be the least concern. Jail time is what often happens to felons and that is what fraud would be.
adrian
I'm sorry to post such an off-topic reply, because we all know how ACG keeps their noses clean, but I wonder how Alan and Diane Hager are doing these days?
CoinGuy, welcome home. we missed you.
Camelot