Grading thru NGC

aces1 · October 2, 2003 10:27AM

I've been collecting for some time now and until recently thought that NGC was on par with PCGS as far as grading standards were concerned, I just received back a AU-58 1944 Walking Half that I deemed at least a MS-63 turns into a nightmare. This is the 4th coin from this lame org that missed graded my coin. I combed this coin based on PCGS grading standards along with at least three others dealers stating that it should come back at least MS-62 maybe 64 and lo and behold AU-58. Has anybody had this much difficulty with NGC grading? In the same lot they did grade my 1893 Columbian Half what I had perceived and bought it for, but overall, they (NGC) has in my mind never come close to what should be a standardization of grading compared to PCGS. I for one are going exclusively now with PCGS for grading cause I've never had them grade a coin that was far off scale. My sense is that NGC has lost touch in grading the "CLASSIC" coins verses the newer stuff ie.. I would love to hear from other coin collectors on this matter.

nwcs · October 2, 2003 10:29AM

Are you sure that you aren't misgrading the coin? An AU-58 is usually a MS-62 or MS-63 with very light rub on it.

Louis · October 2, 2003 10:31AM

Welcome to the boards

.

Russ · October 2, 2003 10:32AM

<< This is the 4th coin from this lame org that missed graded my coin. >>

Reminds me of the guy that keeps getting speeding tickets, but it's always the Cop's fault.

Russ, NCNE

EVillageProwler · October 2, 2003 10:32AM

Aces1,

Many folks seem to think that NGC is more lenient than PCGS. You seem to have the opposite experience. There is another possibility to this situation -- and please take no offense at this -- and that is that you and the dealers with whom you've consulted simply missed the trace rub and consider the coin to have an AU62+ "look". Many sliders have what many in the industry call an AU62+ look. By that, it means that the coin is an awesome coin in terms of eye appeal, marks and luster, but that it simply has the most miniscule bit of trace rub that keeps it from a true UNC.

Regards,

EVP

LucyBop · October 2, 2003 10:40AM

Theres a authority on these boards when it comes to AU58's.......

Goes by the name of MadMarty.......

aces1 · October 2, 2003 10:41AM

The coin mentioned has no rubbing whatsoever. I have looked carefully at this coin for any signs of wear and it shows none. It is a strict UNC. That is why I posted the info.

mgoodm3 · October 2, 2003 10:41AM

Resubmit it to PCGS and see what happens.

ksteelheader · October 2, 2003 10:43AM

Goes by the name of MadMarty....... ...

..Ken

tgilliams · October 2, 2003 10:49AM

submit your undergraded (All 4) coins to PCGS and then make your determination. With the potential upside of an MS63 vs. AU-58 makes it well worth investing in PCGS grading fees. All of os would like to hear the results.

foodude · October 2, 2003 10:50AM

The coin mentioned has no rubbing whatsoever. I have looked carefully at this coin for any signs of wear and it shows none. It is a strict UNC. That is why I posted the info.

Since I haven't seen the coin I can't comment on what it actually is. I wold like to add one comment to consider. Occasionally the rub on an AU 58 is not where you would normally expect it- the high points. Sometimes it is in the field.

darktone · October 2, 2003 10:52AM

aces1, please post a good picture of the coin that we can use to see your point about the undergrade or else everyone here will just assume that you misgraded it. Sorry but that's how I percieve the situation without at least a good picture. mike

Skipper53 · October 2, 2003 10:54AM

When I made my first submissions this year to PCGS, I was horrified to get back
coins 3-4 grades lower than what I was led to believe they were.
Discovered how much I still need to learn about the "art" of grading.

EVillageProwler · October 2, 2003 10:58AM

I have looked carefully at this coin for any signs of wear and it shows none.

Maybe you're right. I certainly have not seen your coins. But, I do know that even many veteran dealers have a hard time with trace rub, and that it certainly can be a toss up with the services depending on the series.

EVP

braddick · October 2, 2003 10:59AM

<< 

<< This is the 4th coin from this lame org that missed graded my coin. >>

Reminds me of the guy that keeps getting speeding tickets, but it's always the Cop's fault.

Russ, NCNE >>

Best statement I've read all week.

airplanenut · October 2, 2003 11:06AM

Danglen (darksider) has taken Advanced Grading at the ANA countless times...

He had to grade walkers this summer... every AU he called MS, and every MS he called AU... why? Not because he can't grade... because walkers are one of the hardest series' to differentiate a rub and weak strike... or just an AU in general... Dan can grade, trust me.

My guess is there really is a rub somewhere... or, NGC was just being hard. PCGS has been hard on people, too- it happens. If people kept getting lower than expected grades, PCGS wouldn't be so backed up...

AmericanSilverEagleCoins · October 2, 2003 11:24AM

I've been reading this board for a few weeks now. I guess the the grading services only return to you the grade without any type of report card as to how they determined the grade? I mean if there were some sort of statment that said "rub at 2 oclock in the field" results in AU58 then everyone would be better edeucated in what to look for in future buys

nwcs · October 2, 2003 11:28AM

But who is willing to pay for that service? It takes additional time to write those up and that lowers the productivity of a grader and thus would increase the per unit charges and decrease the turnaround time.

koynekwest · October 3, 2003 1:44PM

Usually, this grading service OVERGRADES coins, most often in the MS66-MS67 range. I guess they are as incompetent on recognizing non-wear as they are on overgrading. I wonder when they will honestly be rated as the third level grading service they are by the Numismatic community. Too much dealer support, maybe.

EVillageProwler · October 3, 2003 1:49PM

Koynekwest,

How can you possibly make such a judgement of NGC regarding these coins when you haven't actually seen these coins? Even if we assume that NGC is not a quality service, you still shouldn't simply presume an error on their part (of grading these specific coins) without some form of direct evidence.

EVP

tradedollarnut · October 3, 2003 2:00PM

I'm still struggling with what defines overgrading and what defines undergrading. If published price guides are the ultimate arbitor, then more often than not both top services are undergrading coins these days!

darktone · October 3, 2003 2:01PM

EVP, I think statememts such as koynekwest's are from those that can't grade for themselves and it's easier for them to buy PCGS coins because they are the most market acceptable than it is to learn to grade and buy the coin itself and not just the slab. mike

DHeath · October 3, 2003 2:02PM

TDN......that's the smartest thing I've read this month.

airplanenut · October 3, 2003 2:02PM

<< I'm still struggling with what defines overgrading and what defines undergrading. If published price guides are theultimate abitor, then more often than not both top services are undergrading coins these days!

>>

...so if you really want a 63+, try NTC or PCI... but an NGC AU58's worth more...

Bear · October 3, 2003 2:08PM

One thing I have started to notice about NGC, on Type Proof quarters and half dollars,

even in PR66 to Pr 68, you will frequently find hairlines in the field ,when you use a 5X glass.

Generally I dont find such hairlines on Gem PCGS Proofs especially on Half Dollars.

razorface1027 · October 3, 2003 2:10PM

Why do you think they call themselves PROFESSIONAL...If I were able to grade coins at the level of those with expertise at PCGS, NGC, and it's killin' me to say it...ANACS, $hit, I'd be there not on here!...

darktone · October 3, 2003 2:19PM

Bear, I have noticed this in gold coins in NGC and PCGS holders also. Maybe they are getting too busy and they need to slow down? mike

puff · October 3, 2003 3:23PM

<< Koynekwest,

How can you possibly make such a judgement of NGC regarding these coins when you haven't actually seen these coins? Even if we assume that NGC is not a quality service, you still shouldn't simply presume an error on their part (of grading these specific coins) without some form of direct evidence.

EVP >>

EVP... That's the best statement I've read so for on this thread!

I also see why some of the so-called "newbies" don't post questions, when the comeback from a few of the "oldies" is just sarcasm, and not really an answer to the question posted.

Just because someone is new to the forum doesn't mean that he/she is new to coin collecting. But I also agree that before this type of question can be answered with some type of authoritative answer that a photo of the coin in question should be posted.IMHO

wingedliberty · October 3, 2003 3:53PM

NGC is an excellent grading service and as good as PCGS on any day of the week. It has been my experience that they are more objective on toned coins and in many cases more consistent on all coins.
I only use PCGS and NGC.

IrishMike · October 3, 2003 9:19PM

<< 

<< Koynekwest,

How can you possibly make such a judgement of NGC regarding these coins when you haven't actually seen these coins? Even if we assume that NGC is not a quality service, you still shouldn't simply presume an error on their part (of grading these specific coins) without some form of direct evidence.

EVP >>

EVP... That's the best statement I've read so for on this thread!

I also see why some of the so-called "newbies" don't post questions, when the comeback from a few of the "oldies" is just sarcasm, and not really an answer to the question posted.

Just because someone is new to the forum doesn't mean that he/she is new to coin collecting. But I also agree that before this type of question can be answered with some type of authoritative answer that a photo of the coin in question should be posted.IMHO

>>

Puff, I don't see where this poster asked a question. He posed his opinion of a third party grading service with nothing to back it up. He threw out an opinion as did other responders. Claims to be knowlegeable and a collector for a period of time. If you call one of the respected grading companies lame (respected by those who know coins and aren't diehard PCGS or raw coin advocates) then be prepared to defend that. I don't see in this thread where anyone attacked this poster. Why should a new poster be able to get away with making those statements?

291fifth · October 3, 2003 9:49PM

I'm quite sure NGC graded the coin correctly. The real question you should be asking yourself is why did you want to waste good money slabbing a common date Walker that had MS63 potential as a top grade.
Collectors are wasting too much money submitting coins that really don't belong in slabs. You need to more carefully consider what you submit.

MikeKing · October 3, 2003 11:52PM

I wouldn't call one of the top two grading services in this country 'lame' just because they didn't give you what you wanted. Perhaps what they did was show you that you need to improve on your grading ability and learn how to better determine whose opinions you can rely on.

puff · October 4, 2003 12:20AM

>>

Puff, I don't see where this poster asked a question. He posed his opinion of a third party grading service with nothing to back it up. He threw out an opinion as did other responders. Claims to be knowlegeable and a collector for a period of time. If you call one of the respected grading companies lame (respected by those who know coins and aren't diehard PCGS or raw coin advocates) then be prepared to defend that. I don't see in this thread where anyone attacked this poster. Why should a new poster be able to get away with making those statements? >>

***********************************************************************************

"""IRISHMIKE"""..... I think you should read "all" of what I said in my post... I did not "attack" any grading service period. I think you misunderstood, or misread my post. I don't see why you think I was attacking "any" grading service. I was making a point about the "sarcasm" that some of the "oldies" use when responding to a post. I probably should have left out the word "question", and simply said that there are to many post being made by "newbies", and others, wether it be in the form of a question, are statement, and the comeback that I have seen by some is not construcktive, are in anyway helpful, but just a sarcastic , or a snide remark.

For the record I respect "both" of the two main grading services, although I only collect PCGS graded coins, doesn't mean I have anything against NGC....... I collect only PCGS coins because that's how I started when PCGS was the "only" grading service! I like to keep continuity because I keep my set of Walkers in "Eagle" albums, and a coin in a NGC holder would look out of place. If I had the opportunity to attend a coin show, (which I can't because I cab't walk anymore), I would by the coin, and not the plastic. But since I am disabled and got my start with PCGS, I put my trust in my 30 years of collecting coins before I became disabled, and 2 or 3 reputable dealers that I buy from on approval.

EvilMCT · October 4, 2003 12:33AM

<< I mean if there were some sort of statment that said "rub at 2 oclock in the field" results in AU58 then everyone would be better edeucated in what to look for in future buys >>

People complain already about the return time on their submissions now. Also, if the grading services did implement this type of system, the masses could start to learn how to grade for themselves. Why would they want to hamper their own business?

Ken

Morganluver · October 4, 2003 1:22AM

Bottom line:

NGC is not as loose as many people generally think.

EVillageProwler · October 4, 2003 1:54AM

EVP... That's the best statement I've read so for on this thread! I also see why some of the so-called "newbies" don't post questions, when the comeback from a few of the "oldies" is just sarcasm, and not really an answer to the question posted. Just because someone is new to the forum doesn't mean that he/she is new to coin collecting. But I also agree that before this type of question can be answered with some type of authoritative answer that a photo of the coin in question should be posted.IMHO

Puff,

I assume that your post was in response to mine, which I think most will agree is a fair assumption...

In that case, I don't understand how you can express negativity at my post. How was I sarcastic to KK?

EVP

paigowjohnny · October 4, 2003 6:45AM

<< Many sliders have what many in the industry call an AU62+ look. >>

Got my share of those...thank you Coast to Coast

puff · October 4, 2003 6:51AM

<< EVP... That's the best statement I've read so for on this thread! I also see why some of the so-called "newbies" don't post questions, when the comeback from a few of the "oldies" is just sarcasm, and not really an answer to the question posted. Just because someone is new to the forum doesn't mean that he/she is new to coin collecting. But I also agree that before this type of question can be answered with some type of authoritative answer that a photo of the coin in question should be posted.IMHO

Puff,

I assume that your post was in response to mine, which I think most will agree is a fair assumption...

In that case, I don't understand how you can express negativity at my post. How was I sarcastic to KK?

"EVP"... Your assumption is wrong..... Check your PM.

Myqqy · October 4, 2003 7:06AM

I think one of the most interesting points on this thread was made early on by AmericanSilverEagleCoins when he mentioned that the grading services should put some type of brief notation about their assessment of the coin and how the grade was reached. How much extra time does it take to write down or type a couple/few sentences after you have thoroughly examined a coin? In my field (mental health counseling), documentation is everything, and you must allow others to see your train of thought that led to your actions. I think it's a little ridiculous that a grading company would have to keep the logic of their grading a secret when you have paid good money for their assessment. I don't think offering that brief written assessment would lower future business because the masses would then learn to grade- people get coins slabbed because of the increased marketability of the coin when it rests in one of the market leading slabs. I don't want mystery when I get a coin slabbed- I would like to know why it is the grade it is.

EVillageProwler · October 4, 2003 7:16AM

The services cannot write notes to indicate why a coin was graded at such and such level because every coin is different and then the notes would be copious and burdensome. Grading is an art, not a science. To have notes would give the impression that it can be pinned down to a near science. Then, that would expose the services to increased liability because there would be all these little notes that can be used in a discovery process.

BTW, I agree with the use of notes to indicate the reason for a BB (which NGC does). In this case, it's easier to explain the difference between a problem coin and one that is problem-free. Explaining trace rub or the difference between 66 and 67 is much harder. And, finally, the notes must explain something. Is the service supposed to guess that Aces1 wanted to know why he got an AU58 instead of an MS62? How about if he really wanted to know between AU55 and AU58, and that he got the gift instead of the slam...

EVP

FanOfModerns · October 4, 2003 8:58AM

<< Usually, this grading service OVERGRADES coins, most often in the MS66-MS67 range. I guess they are as incompetent on recognizing non-wear as they are on overgrading. I wonder when they will honestly be rated as the third level grading service they are by the Numismatic community. Too much dealer support, maybe. >>

PCGS coins only for me! They are the best and anyone who says differently is lying to you.

EVillageProwler · October 4, 2003 9:07AM

PCGS coins only for me! They are the best and anyone who says differently is lying to you.

You do know that PCGS is a grading service and not a mint, don't you?!? PCGS can only grade coins submitted to them by the general collecting public and the dealers.

If it is your intent to express your confidence in the professionalism of their grading, then I suggest that you choose your verbiage accordingly. As it stands now, I think it is easy for folks to misunderstand your true intent...

EVP

Gilbert · October 5, 2003 1:29AM

<< Collectors are wasting too much money submitting coins that really don't belong in slabs. >>

291fifth - I cannot fathom how one be so presumptious as to state what does or doesn't "belong" in a slab. I can understand whether it is "cost effective" to slab a coin IF cost is the issue. I use slabs for longterm preservation; any coin I intend to keep is worthy of being encapsulated, in my opinion.

EVP,

Surely you will agree that this statement reeks of sarcasm:

You do know that PCGS is a grading service and not a mint, don't you?!? PCGS can only grade coins submitted to them by the general collecting public and the dealers.

If it is your intent to express your confidence in the professionalism of their grading, then I suggest that you choose your verbiage accordingly. As it stands now, I think it is easy for folks to misunderstand your true intent...

EVP

Now who really would think that PCGS "mints" coins, and just how many folks do you truly believe will actually conclude that "PCGS coins" refers to coins minted by PCGS? OR is it that you are no FanOfModerns?

EVillageProwler · October 5, 2003 1:37AM

Yes, Gilbert, my post certainly does reek of sarcasm. I'm glad that that did come out... As for the rest, I'm sure you and others can figure out exactly what I meant.

EVP

EVillageProwler · October 5, 2003 1:39AM

OR is it that you are no FanOfModerns?

And, I am not FanOfModerns nor am I a fan of FanOfModerns. (I don't know him well enough to be strongly for or against him as a person.)

EVP

Russ · October 5, 2003 1:45AM

<< I agree with the use of notes to indicate the reason for a BB (which NGC does). >>

Lest anybody who hasn't used NGC mistakenly assume that the graders are sitting there writing notes for the submitter, I'll point out that what they actually use is a preprinted checklist.

Russ, NCNE

Grading thru NGC

Comments

Leave a Comment