Franklin Market

MikeKing · September 21, 2003 11:26AM

Am I imagining things or is the market for Franklins as terrible as it looks. Most recent Heritage auction e.g., none of the Franklins I was following, sold. Last Heritage auction in Baltimore looked pretty poor for Franklins also.
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wingedliberty · September 21, 2003 11:29AM

You're imagining things, if anything, the market for Franklins is gaining intensity. The best bargains are in PF67CAM dates in the 1950's. You can use this response to say I was right , several years from now.

DCAMFranklin · September 21, 2003 11:32AM

<< <i>the market for Franklins is gaining intensity >>

Just when did that begin? The last 24 hours?? The Franklin market, business strike and proof, have been in a steady decline for the past 5 years.

wondercoin · September 21, 2003 11:54AM

"Am I imagining things or is the market for Franklins as terrible as it looks:

It is not terrible if you are a buyer right now. I picked up some super Franklins in the Heritage sale at incredible (low) prices.

Wondercoin

wallstreetman · September 21, 2003 11:54AM

For the past 4 years, the past year they have seen gains!

Typetone · September 21, 2003 12:06PM

Proofs look terrible. 1953 in 67 Cam can be bought anywhere for under $800. Several years ago they were $2,000+. A beautiful 1957 in 68DCAM went for $800 or so in the Heritage auction. Several years ago I offered a major member of this Board $2,000 plus for a nice example and was turned down. Several years ago, 1956 Type 2's in 69DCAM were $3,500 coins. Didn't one just go for about $1,200?. There are many other examples. It even looks like the top graded low pops are dropping. This might be a great time to start a proof Franklin collection, but the last two years have not been a great time to own one. On the other hand 1950's proof Lincolns are strengthening. Maybe the interests are just changing.

Greg

foodude · September 21, 2003 12:59PM

I have bought and sold $20,000+ of MS franklins in the last few months (including several bought and sold at the Baltimore ANA show), and for the most part the prices were not terrible, and in several cases (both buying and selling) significantly more than one might think after looking at the ebay and other auctions. These coins were all PCGS (and a few NGC) graded coins, and for the most part solid to high-end for the grade with well above average to exceptional to WOW eye appeal. One of the problems with Franklins is so many have have poor or blah eye appeal, and hence don't sell, or sell for well below expectations.

There are MS frankies out there with well above average to exceptional to WOW eye appeal, that do bring the prices they deserve. One of the problems is that many sellers describe their coins as if they have well above average to exceptional eye appeal, when in fact, they have average or below average eye appeal. I sometimes wonder if some of these sellers have actually seen high end frankies with well above average, exceptional, or wow eye appeal.

BTW, at least two sellers/buyers I have dealt with recently (LucyBop and Frank, the pug dog) know the difference (i.e., they have dealt/do deal with frankies that include those having above average, exceptional, or wow eye appeal.

FC57Coins · September 21, 2003 1:07PM

I see the market in Franklins as re-adjusting. Over the past few years there has been a steady and noticeable increase in the pops - but in my estimation, this is as much due to crackouts and re-submissions as it is to new material being found. However, as for new material being found, that's getting harder and harder to find each day. To prove a point, I would ask those of you who went to the Long Beach show - How many pristine 1951-58 mint sets with gem coins did you run into? Or how many original rolls? - Anyway, the market will get better and these coins will have their day in the sun.

Frank

mdwoods · September 21, 2003 1:09PM

Ben Frankie was the man. Top quality Franklins with exceptional eye appeal are rare. The fairly simple obverse makes any marks at all stick out like a sore thumb. The reverse also has plenty of wide open area. That's why they are so difficult in grades above MS66.

Merc · September 21, 2003 2:19PM

I'll have to agree with your first poster. Franklins have been moving down over the past several years. It is hard to price them too. I have seen many with grades of Ms65 and 66 with dull or really ugly toning. I don't see so many ugly toned high grade coins in the other series. That is something wierd with the Franklins. Then there are really great flashy coins from rolls. I wonder if this is a time to buy them.

Ronyahski · September 21, 2003 2:39PM

A few observations on the current Franklin market:

1) Don't know what happened at Long Beach, I wasn't there, and did not see the coins. The major wholesale dealer of Franklins missed the show (first major show in years). It only takes two at auction to support prices. He always has, not this show.

2) The Baltimore Heritage Franklin coins were not a high end group of coins. Weak prices should have been expected.

3) The Franklin market, for "modern" coins, is the most mature. Prices for these coins were running up years before prices for Washingtons, Roosies, Jeffersons, and even Lincolns, caught on. Some price adjustment shouldn't be unexpected.

4) The Franklin market is thinner than it might appear (same could be said for many series). It only takes a handful of collectors putting together sets to run up prices for the highest graded specimens. When those few are not around, prices suffer. I'm not sure who is around right now.

5) The Registry is locked at the top. The top few sets now listed on the Registry are unapproachable given the current supply of Franklin slabs. Given that, is there anybody else realistically striving to be the best?

6) The populations of Franklins has grown in the past couple of years. Given the rise in prices preceding that, alot of coins were pulled out of collections and mint sets, thus supply (at least of slabs) caught up with demand.

7) No marketing. Who is touting Franklins right now? For years, Tomaska was pushing them heavily. He's more into cameos now. Many of the former secondary players in the market aren't spending advertising dollars right now.

8) Contrary to most opinions, the FBL designation by the grading services has actually hurt the Franklin market.

9) Franklins rely on market grading more than any other series I can think of. Given collecters reliance more and more on the grade on a slab, prices for truly exceptional Franklins have suffered due to the recent emergence of many pedestrian pieces of plastic. Too few have enough confidence to discern the difference.

DCAMFranklin · September 21, 2003 3:43PM

To wrap all of that up. Supply far exceeds demand. Increasing populations exceed the number of new collectors. Prices have been falling and they have not rebounded in the past 24 hours.

wingedliberty · September 21, 2003 8:55PM

Typical DCAM Franklin response. Full of sarcasm, and lacking in objective information. The usual.

greghansen · September 21, 2003 10:11PM

A beautiful 1957 in 68DCAM went for $800 or so in the Heritage auction

And so did a 1955 67DCAM which I was happy to add to my registry set for that price.

bushmaster8 · September 22, 2003 1:11AM

The Franklin market is very, very weak. It is a great opportunity for buyers. A couple of weeks ago a 1954-S PCGS MS66 sold on ebay for $77! And it appeared to be a nice coin. That is WAYYY too cheap.

I agree with ron that the FBL designation has hurt the Franklin market. In the same way that non-FB roosevelts have to be deeply discounted to practically give-away prices, non FBL Franks are a hard item to sell.

I believe one of the big problems with the Franklin market is the consistent overpricing of the series in all the price guides. CU, CW Trends and the Numismatic News counterpart of Trends (I forget what NN calls theirs), all publish grossly overinflated prices for the series. When people go to sell their Franklins and are offered as low as 20% of Trends, they become dissillusioned and find some other series to collect.

Rick Tomaska supplies CW with the prices they publish in TRENDS. OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST PROBLEM WITH THAT!

The fact that Tomaska has not run any of his multi-page ads in the trade newspapers lately is indicative that many people have become wise to his 200-300% markups.

Typetone · September 22, 2003 1:26AM

Greg:

I was looking at the 54 in 67 DCAM, but the price got above my level. I didn't see it listed as having sold. What happened to it? Congrats on buying the 55 at that price. Someone got a great deal on the 57 I think.

Greg

wondercoin · September 22, 2003 1:36AM

"The fact that Tomaska has not run any of his multi-page ads in the trade newspapers lately is indicative that many people have become wise to his 200-300% markups. "

Or, perhaps this may be the reason (taken from Rick's website):

In Our Prayers……..

Early Saturday morning on August 2 our oldest son Joseph (“Joey”) died in his sleep. My wife Ilona and I received the phone call early that afternoon while at the ANA show in Baltimore. We took the earliest flight home possible Sunday morning.

Joey was 32 years old. He was a tremendous young man with a warm, giving heart and was loved by all. He took excellent care of himself and was in tremendous physical condition. Joey had no control over the epilepsy he came into this world with, and which was never completely controlled, despite numerous operations, treatments, and prescriptions. He apparently died while having a seizure.

He handled the adversity life dealt him with dignity and grace that will forever be a model and inspiration for me. The past year he found the first job he really enjoyed, working in the cafeteria at Point Loma Nazarene University. He was looking forward to returning after their summer break. He was finding some real happiness and contentment after a lifetime of struggle with his debilitating illness.

I still can’t quite believe he’s gone, he is so real and alive in my mind and heart. He dodged so many bullets in his life due to his epilepsy. He could have died dozens of times the past 30 years, in any number of horrid accidents. However, he happened to leave this planet in the most peaceful way possible, and our last memories of him are of his beautiful smile. I do believe God decided it was “time”, as difficult and “too soon” it may seem to my wife and I, his three younger sisters, and his biological dad Joe.

While he had a severe physical handicap that also affected his learning ability, in the things that matter most he was most blessed.

Our family will miss him greatly. We ask that you have Joey in your prayers.

In lieu of flowers, we have asked friends and relatives to send a donation to:

Epilepsy Foundation
San Diego County
2055 El Cajon Blvd.
San Diego, Ca 92104

puff · September 22, 2003 1:42AM

<< <i>Typical DCAM Franklin response. Full of sarcasm, and lacking in objective information. The usual.

>>

I'm a Walker collector...... But I've been giving some "serious" thought to collecting Franklins.

DCAMFranklin · September 22, 2003 2:14AM

<< <i>Typical DCAM Franklin response. Full of sarcasm, and lacking in objective information. The usual.

>>

A laughable response from someone that provides absolutely zero objective information to back his own comments. My statement had no sarcasm, just facts. Falling prices are indicative of a series with inadequate numbers of collectors to absorb the abundant supply of coins being made.

coinkat · September 22, 2003 10:44AM

This is an interesting series... tune into Frank's series on the Franklin Half and we will all benefit. Is the series undervalued? perhaps...

Russ · September 22, 2003 11:04AM

Ronyahski,

Your analysis alone made this thread worth reading. Thanks!

Russ, NCNE

Franklin Market

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