Is it true about PCGS?

razorface1027 · September 19, 2003 5:01AM

Is it true that PCGS graders don't recognize certain overdates/varieties unless specified by the submitter?

cherrypickincoin · September 19, 2003 5:05AM

If it's a major variety they will slab it, such as obvious overdates, major doubled dies, etc. If it's a lesser variety, and there are thousands of them, you will need to refer them in the right direction as to what you want on the slab. They'll verify it or you can have them research it for you for another fee.

JohnZ · September 19, 2003 5:13AM

Uh, well, I have an 1864 IHC with a very strong die clash that isn't listed on the slab. Hello? Anybody home?

Russ · September 19, 2003 5:21AM

<< <i>Uh, well, I have an 1864 IHC with a very strong die clash that isn't listed on the slab. Hello? Anybody home? >>

Since that is not a major recognized variety, unless it was submitted under error service, it won't be noted on the slab.

<< <i>If it's a major variety they will slab it >>

Even with major varieties, it should be noted as such on the submission form or it may not be designated on the slab. In other words, the submitter does need to specifiy. It's not necessarily automatic.

Russ, NCNE

nwcs · September 19, 2003 5:26AM

Of course, the problem is when someone submits a coin who doesn't know varieties and either misattributes or doesn't attribute at all.

Russ · September 19, 2003 5:39AM

<< <i>Of course, the problem is when someone submits a coin who doesn't know varieties and either misattributes or doesn't attribute at all. >>

Or, when somebody does know the variety and deliberately screws with the graders at PCGS by noting it for a coin that isn't.

Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl · September 19, 2003 5:46AM

a die clash is not a die variety

K S

dbldie55 · September 19, 2003 5:51AM

PCGS WILL NOT place any variety on the holder and will not research it for you. I had a known doubled die that was not in the cherry pickers guide, so it was not designated on the holder. This was under the error service as that is the only way to do the varieties they will denote (but do not have specific pcgs numbers for).

razorface1027 · September 19, 2003 8:16AM

OK. Ok. OKKKK. I should've been more emphatic. eg: 80-CC Morgans with overdates and reverse types. Will PCGS label it as such w/o you specifying it on the submission sheet?

coinkat · September 19, 2003 9:40AM

PCGS will designate whether an 1880-cc is the reverse of 1878 or 1879 and which overdate is involved. They do the top 50 VAMS (I believe). However, there were times when they did not recognize certain varieties among all US coins that are significant to collectors.

braddick · September 19, 2003 10:48AM

I would think if you included a 55/55 or a 3-legged Buffalo or a 1922 NO-D Lincoln you would receive the coin back from PCGS noted on the insert.
As others have stated though on the recognized varieties that are not popular it is best to list it on the submission.

DennisH · September 19, 2003 2:34PM

Seeing as how for the last few years I have made a sport of locating unattributed Morgan varieties in PCGS holders -- varieties that PCGS already DOES recognize -- I think I'm qualified to answer this question based upon repeated personal experience:

1. You can NOT depend upon PCGS graders to accurately and consistently notice and attribute ANY of the 26 PCGS-recognized varieties that are not a part of the standard 97-coin business strike set, unless you specify the variety on the submission invoice. (The possible exceptions may be the 1879-CC Capped Die, 1882-O/S, and the 1887/6-O.) I have increased the value of my collection by many thousands of dollars by looking for -- and finding over and over -- non-attributed PCGS varieties that are already in PCGS holders, pay the $10 Variety Review fee, and voila!

Granted, older green PCGS holders are the most fertile ground for this hunt, but I repeatedly find them in brand new PCGS slabs too. I just found a NICE one Thursday at the Long Beach show, an 1880-S 8/7 MS67 that was holdered as a plain old 1880-S.

I have bought maybe a dozen of this variety alone in grades ranging from MS64 to MS66 exactly the same way. (There are lots of 1880/9-S out there, too. The finest known and pop. 1 MS68 is a coin I bought in a Kingswood auction that was holdered as a plain old 1880-S. ) I even found an MS63 1890-CC Tailbar in a Heritage auction holdered as a plain old 1890-CC. I've bought several 1880-Os that were actually 1880/79-O. There are LOTS of 1880-CCs out there that are NOT identified as 8/7 high or 8/7 low. I saw two more at Long Beach.

2. You can NOT depend upon PCGS graders to get the variety attribution right, whether you put it down on the submission invoice or not. It is not uncommon to find 1880-CCs identified as 8/7 high or low, which are actually the other way around. It is also not unusual to find coins holdered as 1880/79-CC reverse of '78, which are actually the much tougher 8/7.

3. You can NOT always believe what the holder says when it comes to Morgan varieties. I have seen coins in 1880-CC reverse of '78 holders that are actually reverse of '79, and vice versa. I have seen more than one coin holdered as 1887-P, that was actually 1887/6-P.

As with any and every coin you purchase, knowledge is power. PCGS graders mess up Morgan variety attributions with great regularity. I think people who submit them do it even more frequently. Educate yourself, and then take the time to actually LOOK at what is in the holder instead of simply reading what the insert says. You'll be amazed what you find.

-- Dennis

razorface1027 · September 20, 2003 12:15AM

Dennis...Thanks for the concise feedback, and to all, the same, it's greatly appreciated. The scenario at hand is my most recent submission of a 80/79-CC rev. 78, 81-CC dmpl, 84-CC and 85-CC all in GSA slabs. The 80/79-CC was a obvious 80/79-CC. I recently purchased the 8/low & high, 8/7 rev. 78 and the rev. 79 regular 80-CC with the dash under 2nd 8 as templets. Again, thanks all for your prompt responses. Best regards,
Tom
razorface1027

DennisH · September 20, 2003 2:18AM

Tom:

It's always a pleasure to share information, experience and opinions with fellow coin collectors... and especially with fellow Morgan-aholics who have been bitten by the variety bug!

Best of luck in your search!

-- Dennis

Is it true about PCGS?

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