David Hall curtesy presorting of coins at the L.B. Show

Bear · September 19, 2003 12:45PM

Precisely at 1PM on Friday Dave showed up and the little bear was first in line.

Dave was kind enough to look thru some 30 coins and selected 9 coins that

he felt stood a chance of receiving upgrades. Now bear in mind, by a chance we are talking

of a range of about 20% to perhaps 60%. By this process you eliminate those coins that have no chance

at all. Daves track record so far with me has been pretty good. On previous occassions, out of 9 coins

he selected, (2) crossed in grade and (l) was upgraded one point. To my way of thinking thats batting

333. Not bad for either baseball or 3rd party grading. While there is no doubt that this is a great benefit

to the companies image and bussiness, it is also a great service for those of use who attend the major shows

and make use of Daves expertise and time.The rest of my submissions were presorted by some very nice

coin dealers from this Forum and I will let you know how each batch faired as they are released.

ohbaby · September 19, 2003 1:02PM

This guy is standup.

With all the "bagging" people do on PCGS David Hall has to be recognized for walking point. No one is forcing him to do this and I will give him credit for going the extra mile here. That and his Tuesdays Q & A , even if he refuses to answer some questions!

Call it marketing or PR, the fact is he is doing it and I respect him a bunch for that. He could just let people submit and get BB and low grades.

HRH hits a HR!

wingedliberty · September 19, 2003 1:06PM

Yeah, I agree, with all of the complaining, how many people actually give him credit for being an industry pioneer and revolutionizing the hobby. It boils down to the majority of people just being natural complainers and brats.

Placid · September 19, 2003 1:23PM

"Now bear in mind"

Goodluck with your grades Bear!

stujoe · September 19, 2003 1:44PM

I have never taken advantage of the PCGS table at a show but I have taken advantage of an ANACS table. They were giving out free opinions and I had a bust half that I wanted to get an authentication opinion on. They were very gracious.

At the same show, Anthony Swiatek gave some advice and talked to a friend about an Isabella that he was trying to sell. Very nice, helpful and courteous.

It is good that some grading services and some dealers are willing to help out collectors like this. It does make an impression.

fountainheadgold · September 19, 2003 2:02PM

David Hall has always been straight with me and I have bought 50 or 60 coins from him and am always happy

sinin1 · September 19, 2003 2:54PM

Bear, did you submit these at thw $100 show rate, or economy or regular?

can you give them coins for the other rates at the show? or need to ship them to PCGS?

dragon · September 19, 2003 3:27PM

This may not be a popular thing to say, but I think that anyone who cannot determine for himself/herself whether or not a certain coin is an upgrade candidate, crossover candidate, undergraded, correctly graded, overgraded, AT'd, whatever,,,,,,, is someone just playing the plastic speculation crackout game, not a true collector, and just concerned with that number on the tag and its value, rather than the coin itself. I also believe speculators/dealers like this are slowly but surely lowering the overall quality and 'gene pool' of certified coins by continually resubmitting anything that has even a remote shot at upgrading until they finally get lucky and get that magic bump. There will eventually come a day when nearly every certified coin has been completely maxxed out in grade via numerous resubmissions, and this is very bad for the hobby IMO.

I would also point out that asking the president of PCGS whether or not he thinks you should resubmit your coins to his own company, and pay another grading fee to his own company, is like asking the owner of a carwash whether or not he thinks your car looks dirty and needs another carwash IMO.

dragon

mnmcoin · September 19, 2003 3:33PM

I am surprised he showed up today, and that gives me an even larger respect for the man. I thought he would try and avoid the barage of complaints about being, now two days behind on walkthroughs. I need to plan to stay through Friday next Long Beach so I can take advantage of this and meet David. I have always been in a hurry to get back to my family that I only attended Wed and Thurs.

morris <><

FrattLaw · September 19, 2003 3:44PM

Not to imply anything negative towards Hall or PCGS, but ANACS has been doing this for years. Mike from ANACS was extremely helpful with my possible proof Peace $ and really went out of his way. Even walking the bourse with me and letting several people wait at this table while he compared my coin to the Satin Proof in the Heritage auction

I think that all the grading companies should do this.

This is one grip I have with NGC. I'm sure Montgomery and Slazberg are at Long Beach, but they never seemed to be at the NGC doing a meet and grade. I really wish they would.

So kudos to PCGS and ANACS, big razzzberry to NGC.

Michael

IrishMike · September 19, 2003 3:51PM

I would love to work for a company where my boss stood out in a public forum and told customers he would have me do my job again, because there is a good chance I screwed it up the first time. Some of you wonder why he takes some flack once in awhile? I wouldn't want to work for a company ran by any of you that think this is a good idea.

Dragon well said.

oreville · September 19, 2003 8:50PM

I prefer my coins not to be maxed out grade wise. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find undergraded coins in the newer PCGS/NGC slabs.

This is why I prefer the older slabs, and yes Dragon, I am trying to offset Bear's effort to resubmit all the upgrade candidates by putting away an almost equal number of old accurately or undergraded graded slabs for future generations.

cladking · September 19, 2003 11:08PM

<< <i>This may not be a popular thing to say, but I think that anyone who cannot determine for himself/herself whether or not a certain coin is an upgrade candidate, crossover candidate, undergraded, correctly graded, overgraded, AT'd, whatever,,,,,,, is someone just playing the plastic speculation crackout game, not a true collector, and just concerned with that number on the tag and its value, rather than the coin itself. I also believe speculators/dealers like this are slowly but surely lowering the overall quality and 'gene pool' of certified coins by continually resubmitting anything that has even a remote shot at upgrading until they finally get lucky and get that magic bump. There will eventually come a day when nearly every certified coin has been completely maxxed out in grade via numerous resubmissions, and this is very bad for the hobby IMO.

>>

The grading companies have an impossible job to consistently grade, attribute, and verify
as to authenticity and originality. It's only natural for all people to see things in different
lights depending on their moods, time of day, or the first detail they happen to look at. It
can hardly be a surprise that coins don't always get exactly the same grade everytime.

Oreville: Isn't setting aside coins in holders that say they are in lower grade the
epitome of "buying the plastic". Not that there's anything wrong with that, and
certainly such coins can be an excellent investment if you're good at it. But this
can't really qualify as a coin collection because it is dependent by definition on the
plastic.

To each his own.

kranky · September 20, 2003 12:18AM

<< <i>This may not be a popular thing to say, but I think that anyone who cannot determine for himself/herself whether or not a certain coin is an upgrade candidate, crossover candidate, undergraded, correctly graded, overgraded, AT'd, whatever,,,,,,, is someone just playing the plastic speculation crackout game, not a true collector, and just concerned with that number on the tag and its value, rather than the coin itself. I also believe speculators/dealers like this are slowly but surely lowering the overall quality and 'gene pool' of certified coins by continually resubmitting anything that has even a remote shot at upgrading until they finally get lucky and get that magic bump. There will eventually come a day when nearly every certified coin has been completely maxxed out in grade via numerous resubmissions, and this is very bad for the hobby IMO.

I would also point out that asking the president of PCGS whether or not he thinks you should resubmit your coins to his own company, and pay another grading fee to his own company, is like asking the owner of a carwash whether or not he thinks your car looks dirty and needs another carwash IMO.

dragon >>

dragon, I would consider myself a "true collector" even though I'm definitely lacking in being able to determine whether or not a certain coin is an upgrade candidate, crossover candidate, undergraded, correctly graded, overgraded, AT'd, whatever. By that standard there would be very few people who would qualify as true collectors. Frankly, I can no longer work up any excitement over splitting hairs on grading MS coins. But I still like collecting them!

coinlieutenant · September 20, 2003 12:50AM

I dont agree with dragon. Just because you cant/wont grade coins doesnt mean that you are not a true hobbiest. When all of us started, NONE of us knew how to properly grade and yet we were all very excited about the hobby and true collectors. It is human nature to want to increase our ownings in value if that is possible. Be able to grade, which in actuality about 1% on this board probably can, is not a prerequisite to the hobby. To being a true numismatist, MAYBE....

In regards to the original start of this thread, I think it is great that David Hall is out there giving his opinions on the coins but.....

I would imagine he is doing it based on a quick eye appeal check, not technical merits. Did he walk up with a loupe and halogen lamp? Did he look for hairlines thru toning on both MS an PF coins. Taking a "quick look" at a box of coins and ranking them in order of upgrade potential is trivial at best without the proper time and equipment.

Having said all of this, I wouldnt mind him giving me his opinioin either. But all of your opinions would carry almost as much weight. Find a crackout dealer and ask him. That is who I would trust opinion wise.

They make their living off of upgrading coins, David makes his off of encasing them in plastic.

V.r,
John

dragon · September 20, 2003 12:53AM

kranky,

I was not taking a shot at collectors who do not feel they are experienced graders or able to determine whether or not a coin they own is correctly graded or whatever, as you can enjoy this hobby just fine IMO without being an expert grader. I WAS taking a shot at plastic speculators who buy coins with the specific purpose of resubmitting them and then selling them, as well as people who cannot be satisfied until every coin they own is absolutely in the highest grade holder possible, and asking the person that runs the grading company whether or not he thinks you should give him more business and resubmit your coins again seems rather silly to me, JMO.

dragon

IrishMike · September 20, 2003 1:05AM

My glass isn't half empty and yours isn't half full. It simply is my opinion. Use the example given, one coin upgraded that is 11%more or less. At Vegas you get 97% payout on slots, if you play craps and blackjack and count cards you can actually give yourself a slight edge over the house. Those odds are better then asking the president what he thinks. To do this in a public setting is a no win situation. Eight out of nine times someone will be disappointed and what message are you sending to the public. To me it is come see me I will tell you if my employees (graders) got it wrong. What exactly makes good business sense out of this?

If you need David to tell you your coin is a POS then ok go ask him, if you can figure it out on your own, then what Dragon posted. No reason to start filling or emptying glasses.

tradedollarnut · September 20, 2003 1:06AM

Dragon: I feel your pain. At times, I get this overwhelming feeling that the glacial process of grade loosening is killing the hobby.

However, I might add that the slow loosening of standards, by definition, will prevent all coins in holders from being maxed out. Eventually, much like the ice slowly creeping to the sea, low end becomes PQ and it starts all over again....

Barry · September 20, 2003 1:15AM

OK, guys, I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

What do DH's free opinions accomplish? More grading fees. That's why he does it. More income for PCGS, and also goodwill which generates future income for PCGS.

As others already stated, ANACS has been doing this for years, and I've taken advantage of it. One time, I showed a coin to ANACS that I thought might have been cleaned. They said it was original. I was getting ready to fill out a PCGS submission form, but then had a burst of conscience. I thought to myself "ANACS was nice enough to offer these opinions, so I'm going to give them my business."

jdimmick · September 20, 2003 6:52AM

I like the idea of PCGS, ANACS giving out opinions at the large shows, especially when dealing with raw coins, but as said, this is a quick opinion and does not necesarily mean you will recive the grade they stated based on the thier initial opinion.

AS far as coins in holders, eventually I believe that a majority of all certified coins that have the potential to upgrade will be upgraded or tried numerous times, before they are given up on.

As a collector, I actually like having a coin in a holder IMO thats better than the grade stated or the so called " PQ" coin. To me its a good feeling having that nicer coin when comparing it to others of the same grade.

But from a sellers standpoint, the higher grade usually brings the stronger money especially when the spread is quite large from one grade to the next. This does have a lot to do with people buying based on what the holder says vs thier own opinions.

Here's one example: I have an exceptionally nice PCG-64 1912-s Liberty Nickel that IMO is as nice both technically and eye-appealling(luster/strike) as a majority of the PCGS Ms-65's on the market. (This is based on both my Opinion as compared to numerous 64's and 5's viewed and several other delaers). This coin is truly a super highend 64 on any bad day grading. If broken out, I would probably have a better than 50/50 shot at making 65 at PCGS if submitted raw. But becuase this coin is not for sale, I dont plan on submitting it any time in the near future, whats the point!

However, If I were to decide to sell or cosign this coin, or list it for sale in a internet auction, it would be in my best intrest to re-submit and shoot for the 65.

With the sheet at 1350/1475 in 64, I would easily expect it to bring 1900+ as is currently.
However, if I were to get it into that 5 holder, because the sheet jumps to 3500/3850, I could see it bringing closer to 3900
Difference of 2000 + -

jim d

dorkkarl · September 20, 2003 7:44AM

great!

K S

JoyofCollecting · September 20, 2003 9:19AM

<< <i>At Vegas you get 97% payout on slots, if you play craps and blackjack and count cards you can actually give yourself a slight edge over the house. q]

I understand the card counting at blackjack, but how can you give yourself a slight edge over the house at craps? Statistically, the "odds behind the line" bet is a 100% payout proposition. Are you thinking that "positioning the dice" gives a greater than 100% payout? Really keen to understand.

Thanks for the advice. Oh yeah, David Hall may be a great guy; but I would never want him to run my company if I were a shareholder or employee.

islemangu · September 20, 2003 9:53AM

I agree with Oreville. Sock away the PQ undergraded older slabs. As more play this crackout game for relaxed upgrades in new slabs....the more overtime the contrast will become apparent between the old the new. I dont think its to far of a stretch for the market one day to pay a premium for the older slabbed PQ undergrades versus same coin in a new slab graded higher.

coinkat · September 20, 2003 9:59AM

Good thread and perhaps it is healthy to have some different perspectives. David Hall deserves much credit for the impact that TPG has had but the evolution is an on going project. This can be seen by the designations that have been accepted as to certain coin series. The process of grading coins will continue to be evolutionary with a subjective overtone.

The re-submissions are an interesting issue and I think that we are loosing sight of the subjective component to grading not to mention the view that the coin market and "market grading" has had on TPG especially in recent years.

You may dismiss my comments as pure crap and that is fine as well as your "right", but take a look at CC Morgans that were slabbed 12-15 years ago and tell me those coins would grade the same today.

roadrunner · September 20, 2003 10:27AM

Jdimmick highlights good points. My fear is that no one in my immediate or extended family has a clue on how to maximize grades if I leave undergrades in holders. Since the best price is currently almost always realized in the higher holder, I strive to do that for self protection in the event something should happen to me. While I may intend to keep my coins for 30 years, whose to say there won't be a need to sell / auction them off in say 3 years? Getting the coins in the proper holders by today's standards is a type of family insurance policy. So what if a superb looking Barber half is still in an old rattler slab graded as MS64 or a newer one graded 65 or 66? It's still the SAME coin and if we all believe that that we buy coins, not plastic, then the holder should not change your enjoyment of it.

TDN brings up a neat point that I never fully realized. We just might go all the way back where today's average or low end schlock, is high end or upgrade material. Imagine cleaned up garbage once considered MS62 or 63 being called 65 and 66. It could happen. The concept of grading services forces a policy of gradeflation on the hobby....and it only goes one way over the long term.....LOOSER.

roadrunner

Stuart · September 20, 2003 11:12AM

I think that it's great for David Hall to attend Large Coin shows and to provide a service for those who wish to take advantage of it. It's good P.R. that makes sense for PCGS and DHRC.

Everyone enjoys our hobby in different ways; some bust coin collectors won't purchase slabbed coins; some classic coin collectors (including me) feel more comfortable purchasing expensive coins that have been certified & slabbed for the additional confidence that a professional opinion provides.

I personally have enough confidence to purchase raw coins in my specialty areas, if they are a compelling buy. But, I usually won't pay more than MS-60 to 62 money on a raw coin...

I would bet that most modern coin collectors who seek out high grade coins (68 & 69), would almost excusively purchase slabbed coins.

It's great that each of us can enjoy the hobby in our own way.

I still like to look at 2nd tier grading service slabbed coins, which many others ignore, because I can find some really good deals on nice coins -- still not paying more than MS-60 to 62 money.

David Hall curtesy presorting of coins at the L.B. Show

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