My non-biased Long Beach report
cherrypickincoin
Posts: 1,760 ✭✭
Well, I went yesterday and I'll be there again today as I live only a mile away from where the convention is held. I saw the Walton 1913 nickel and I have to say that what has been said about the coin seems to be exaggerated. The coin appears to have an old cleaning but it is certainly not harsh/abrasive like it's been made out to be and I see nothing wrong with it that would keep it out of a holder or away from uncirculated proof grade (I know that's vague but I don't like Libnicks and therefore am not the best at grading them).
I overheard and saw people paying decent money for very nice material but for myself, I received nothing but lowball offers for some extremely high-grade material that I've had in my collection. The prices I was offered weren't even anywhere near sheet from three different dealers! We're talking about coins that would normally fetch $4k-$5k at auction and I was offered around $2500!! Some dealers don't seem to know the market very well either. I showed one dealer a 1937 proof dime that I bought from Jason through eBay (jbsteven) and he was appalled by what he called "spots" on the coin and told me that it didn't even belong in the holder that it was in, hmmmm. I won't give away the dealer's name but I'm sure you all have heard of him. Jason, you know which Dime I'm talking about and I think she's a beauty! But of course, that's the subjective nature of the hobby.
Modern material is dropping in price. There seems to be much less demand for it on the bourse and much dealer stock on this stuff was full in the morning and still full when I left on Thursday. We'll see how they do today and tomorrow!
Dealers seem to be a bit over-confident in a select few grading companies' ability. Either they have a quick eye, or some dealers simply look at the grade and glance down at the sheet. I was trying to sell some toned Morgans and some dealers didn't even flip the suckers over, they just offered me below sheet for them based on grade only..these were some rainbow beauties too. I offered some gold commem's also, not ONCE did I ever see a dealer go for his loupe and we all know how small these coins are. I think this over-confidence in pieces of plastic will lead to the hobbies demise. I mean, it's a great thing and I understand the upside potential from a dealer's point of view but as a collector, I see nothing but a bunch of mice and men in a room bidding and buying up a bunch of plastic.
I think we're on a temporary ride in the market. People are relying too much on certain companies' OPINIONS and not buying actual coins. Overall I see a weakening in the market and I think this so-called "double nuclear" stuff is going to close out very soon.
One more thing is this. Some of you dealers HAVE to change your attitudes about things. There were a few teens and kids that I saw at the show yesterday, probably not as many as will be this weekend because parents work, school, etc. I saw one kid sitting at a table looking through some coins trying to make up his mind on what he wanted and I overheard the dealer say "Look, I'm not going to feed kids." The kid stood up and walked away, I went up to him and told him not to let things like that get him down. I remember when I was a kid and that happened, it steered me away from the hobby for several years because I was fed up with the way people treated me. Dealers, don't be judgmental. You don't know who has money on that floor and who doesn't and acting like a kid has none is a silly, silly thing. I saw this kid, must have been 16 or so, spend over $1,000 on Indian quarter eagles at another table. The dealer he was sitting with prior lost a deal because he was a judgmental jerk. Some of these kids have a better eye than we do, they are brilliant and a lot of them don't just go to school, buy video games and make $5.00 an hour. This is a different world and I think you need to cut out the garbage and service these kids. They are the future of this hobby!!
Transactions were not as brisk as I saw back in June. The show seemed a bit slower-paced and not nearly as packed as shows in the past. Oh well, that's just my opinion on it. Will add more when I get back today.
I overheard and saw people paying decent money for very nice material but for myself, I received nothing but lowball offers for some extremely high-grade material that I've had in my collection. The prices I was offered weren't even anywhere near sheet from three different dealers! We're talking about coins that would normally fetch $4k-$5k at auction and I was offered around $2500!! Some dealers don't seem to know the market very well either. I showed one dealer a 1937 proof dime that I bought from Jason through eBay (jbsteven) and he was appalled by what he called "spots" on the coin and told me that it didn't even belong in the holder that it was in, hmmmm. I won't give away the dealer's name but I'm sure you all have heard of him. Jason, you know which Dime I'm talking about and I think she's a beauty! But of course, that's the subjective nature of the hobby.
Modern material is dropping in price. There seems to be much less demand for it on the bourse and much dealer stock on this stuff was full in the morning and still full when I left on Thursday. We'll see how they do today and tomorrow!
Dealers seem to be a bit over-confident in a select few grading companies' ability. Either they have a quick eye, or some dealers simply look at the grade and glance down at the sheet. I was trying to sell some toned Morgans and some dealers didn't even flip the suckers over, they just offered me below sheet for them based on grade only..these were some rainbow beauties too. I offered some gold commem's also, not ONCE did I ever see a dealer go for his loupe and we all know how small these coins are. I think this over-confidence in pieces of plastic will lead to the hobbies demise. I mean, it's a great thing and I understand the upside potential from a dealer's point of view but as a collector, I see nothing but a bunch of mice and men in a room bidding and buying up a bunch of plastic.
I think we're on a temporary ride in the market. People are relying too much on certain companies' OPINIONS and not buying actual coins. Overall I see a weakening in the market and I think this so-called "double nuclear" stuff is going to close out very soon.
One more thing is this. Some of you dealers HAVE to change your attitudes about things. There were a few teens and kids that I saw at the show yesterday, probably not as many as will be this weekend because parents work, school, etc. I saw one kid sitting at a table looking through some coins trying to make up his mind on what he wanted and I overheard the dealer say "Look, I'm not going to feed kids." The kid stood up and walked away, I went up to him and told him not to let things like that get him down. I remember when I was a kid and that happened, it steered me away from the hobby for several years because I was fed up with the way people treated me. Dealers, don't be judgmental. You don't know who has money on that floor and who doesn't and acting like a kid has none is a silly, silly thing. I saw this kid, must have been 16 or so, spend over $1,000 on Indian quarter eagles at another table. The dealer he was sitting with prior lost a deal because he was a judgmental jerk. Some of these kids have a better eye than we do, they are brilliant and a lot of them don't just go to school, buy video games and make $5.00 an hour. This is a different world and I think you need to cut out the garbage and service these kids. They are the future of this hobby!!
Transactions were not as brisk as I saw back in June. The show seemed a bit slower-paced and not nearly as packed as shows in the past. Oh well, that's just my opinion on it. Will add more when I get back today.
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Comments
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I agree with you on the points about pre-judging someone's ability to purchase simply based their age. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my 10 yr old son is part owner of our MS66 1925 St. Gaudens...he forked over $1250 of his own money to buy that coin with me. He has a great interest in the hobby and I hope this continues into his teens. If it does he will be one very educated numismatist and not just some curious punk you want to have move along. In order for this hobby to grow it needs young blood.
Tony
Web: www.tonyharmer.org
that. They are the ones I sell too. Mark
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Russ, NCNE
Thank you for the report. So many things I'm glad to see.
1- you got to offer encouragement to the young man.
2 - some dealers aren't looking at the coins (that'll help us cherrypickers, and they'll learn to look again if the market gets soft.)
3 - moderns are getting cheap. (they'll turn me back into a pure collector with no motive to sell, and the coins will be cheap.
It ain't all bad!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
If it's a dollar sale or a $1,000,000.00 sale, treat all customers the same!!!
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Sounds like the same story, with this lesson. Sell at auction, and cherrypick buy from "sheet" dealers.
Greg
No offense intended, but everyone is biased. Why pretend?
The market is HOT HOT HOT!!! BLISTERING HOT!
Now that we have massive unemployment and more on the way, people are going to have nothing else to do but collect coins. And since they will be getting severance pay in some instances, they will buy ONLY the extremely high grades.
We have been TOLD.......Buy the POP 1's........Told an told an told.
There is NO demand for crummy ol XF's and (ugh) ....c o l l e c t o r......coins......FAH!
Or VG-F bust stuff. Phooey!
Stupid Long Beach!
grrrrrrr.
<< <i>I was trying to sell some toned Morgans and some dealers didn't even flip the suckers over, they just offered me below sheet for them based on grade only..these were some rainbow beauties too. I >>
It has been my experience in selling these type of coins and others that you HAVE to go to the right person. If they are indeed "rainbow beauties." I know several dealers at that show right now that would pay strong money for a true rainbow high grade beauty.
Same for any coins you might sell. But you probably already knew that. Also keep in mind the dealers that didn't look at the coins very good might not have thought they were anything great, as the market is flooded with ho hum toned Morgans in 64 and below grade. I'm definitely not sticking up for dealers so please don't take it that way.
Also keep in mind the ones that pulled out the sheets on your "rainbow beauties" might just think you need money real fast and will low ball you. But if they are indeed nice they are the type of dealers that after buying them from you will hype them "PQ, Monster, Rainbow etc. etc.
Did you read my entire thread? I am quite certain the $50k and up coins are doing well but as I said previously, that is but one sector of an extremely vast market. Indeed this thread is based on my own observations and perceptions but what I meant by "non-biased" is that I am not a dealer. I do not make a living off hype, I'm just going to say it how I see it without any mumbo jumbo junk. What incentive would I have to say the market is getting weaker? It doesn't help me if I want to sell, just being honest with the way I saw things and that is, of course, only my opinion! Everyone else is welcome to their own and I'm sure some dealers are doing quite well at the show. I would have to say, however, that in general what I saw was far less than the hype that this market is made out to be.
As to the mistreatment of youthful customers, the penalty is built into the offense.
We ARE watching you.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Hi end stuff went thru the roof..........until it didn't.
General market up about 30-40% during his first year of collecting $4400.00 every day, rain or shine.
Then he and his dad (both flea marketers) decided to try baseball cards.
BIG TIME.
But, they didn't reckon with multi hundred thousand dollar deposits being treated a wee bit differently from usual 50 buck flea market sales.
So Mr. Taxman had a few words...........and they began to SELL the hi ender toys. Not to MANY people though.
Then they got into GOLD......oh boy. GOLD NUGGETS. You DID know all nuggets were PURE didn't you? Well, THEY thought so.
Thin markets are thin.
We ARE watching you.
Those dealers are also forgetting one other thing... suppose a kid is working for another dealer, who has a huge amount to spend- more than even the "rich" kids would have? I hate dealers who see age and guess on the amount in the wallet... at least I found plenty of worth ones in Baltimore.
Jeremy
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I dont even want to talk to my kids cause they are under 40.
Next I dont want to talk to anyone over 40. Everyone else Ill talk to.
Camelot
is on the open Forum. An oops mistake
Camelot
superior luster for the assigned grades and that is what got me. Stopped by and visited with Rick Kay a while and looked at his nice patterns. He seemed to be having a good show. Ran into Wondercoin while wandering the bourse and we chatted for a few moments. Also my friend Andy Skrabalak of Angel Dees coins. He was also busy. However, I have to award Coinguy1 the busiet dude on the bourse award.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
I share some of your experiences with dealers who treat coins like widgets. I only stick with the civilized dealers who appreciate the nuances of the hobby. The rest to me, are no better than bond traders. (No offense to the one good bond trader I know.