I have to ask....repeated sales of "unopened" 1964 proof sets?

Bochiman · September 10, 2003 1:50PM

Ok,

So, I have seen all the comments about unopened sets from the "flat pack" error most likely NOT being unopened.
I can understand that.

Question though.....looking at some of the sales on ebay, I have seen a seller offer 25 (even 100) at once. I have seen at least 1 forum member bid on them, as have I. But, they still keep showing up in quantity from this seller.
Once or twice a week he has an auction closing for 25 unopened 1964 proof sets.

So, have people bought from him and think this is somewhat legit (I ask before I think about bidding again), or, is this most likely opened sets in "replacement/remade" envelopes?

Thanks,

Ron

Link to 1964 "unopened" proof sets

Bulldog · September 10, 2003 2:34PM

1502 feedbacks and a 100% rating seems pretty safe. However I have never bought from this dealer.

Bulldog

Bochiman · September 10, 2003 2:43PM

I know...I saw that.
But, if someone uses "new" envelopes that are the same as the originals (I have seen some for sale on ebay and even bought one for my 1962 proof set I didn't have an envelope for....it is mine, and not for sale, so the envelope was for me), then, why would a negative feedback be given?

But, if you look at his auctions (and, I am not trying to cast suspicion on him...I honestly am wondering what people think and i anyone has bought these from him and how they feel), then, I have to wonder just how many unopened sets (originals) that a person could actually get........are people finding AH kennedys? finding hot cameos/dcams?
I am just curious because Russ and some others got me thinking about AH kennedys, so I figured unopened sets would be a good chance to try to find them that Russ hasn't already scoped out

Ron

Placid · September 10, 2003 2:52PM

Just looking at the sellers current items I would wonder where it gets the 68's he is selling.

DanC · September 10, 2003 2:57PM

The vast majority of "unopened" sets are opened, and re-sealed in an after-market rip-off envelope.

There simply aren't enough of these "unopened" sets available that have just sat around for the past 40 years neatly sealed by the mint, never piquing the curiousity of anyone to discover what may lie within -- to account for the quantity of "unopened" sets one sees constantly available.

But... don't take my word for it. By all means, buy 100 sets, and count the number of CAM or DCAM coins that you pick out.

It'll be a darned small number.

A comparison of the envelopes will provide the necessary clues - to the discerning.

Deadhorse · September 10, 2003 3:24PM

I recently opend 10 1964 sets that had been in my uncle's basement for almost 40 years. Didn't find a single anything, cams, toned, AHs, NOTHING.

Just today I opened 10 sets I bought on eBay, not from this seller BTW, and I found 2 nice Rosie Cams, one Washington cam, a great looking purple and gold Jeff and 3 AH Kennedys.

So, who knows what's still out there.

Yes, 2 of the 3 AHs had milkspots.

coppercoins · September 10, 2003 3:58PM

I'd like to get ahold of some of the cents from all these sets being opened....even if they're no-cam 65-66 grades. Unslabbed, of course, and cheap

MadMarty · September 10, 2003 9:18PM

At the show in St. Louis and in Rosemont, Val had a table (he was never there selling at it though). He had his stacks of sealed proof sets and PCGS slabs of CAM and DCAM coins. Makes you wonder doesn't it!

joeyuk · September 10, 2003 10:07PM

I have bouhgt sealed sets off him. Nothing spectacular but nothing to make me think it was anything but what it was sold as.

Steve27 · September 10, 2003 10:12PM

I wonder if he purchases them in groups, checks one or two of them for cameos and/or AH, and if not, sells the rest of the group as "unopened."

keets · September 10, 2003 10:53PM

hey Ron

logic seems to dictate that there is a finite supply of unopened sets and that many sold as "unopened" really aren't. however, some are genuine, and the odds of finding something worthwhile in those sets must be low enough for the sellers to accept that loss at the expense of the premium buyers are willing to pay for allegedly "unopened" sets. what i find interesting is what i call "Lottery Fever Syndrome" which is as follows----------every time a member finds something nice(wins the lottery)they post it here, thus enticing more members to buy a set(ticket). if they always posted when they found nothing(lost the lottery)the true odds would be known and less unopened sets(tickets)would probably be offered. what puzzles me is that they post a link to boast and open the door for competition in the auctions. i keep quiet, wouldn't you??

with all that said, it really just takes one nice coin to make all the risk worthwhile.

al h.

DHeath · September 10, 2003 10:58PM

The boxes are fun, but they don't hold as much charm for me as they used to. I've recently had several local shops bring unopened boxes to the counter for me to open and search. Apparently it is a convienent way for them to store their stock, and the ones that don't deal in moderns could care less what's in them. The first few times this happened, I was shocked, but it is not uncommon if you're in the shops frequently and they know you came to spend money.

Many of the small shops keep the sets as birthyear gifts, and to them they hold no premium. Tuesday, I looked through a dozen boxes and picked out a dozen sets I wanted.

GaCoinGuy · September 11, 2003 12:06AM

I bought a group of 5 sets off this guy last year.....all 5 had AH's, 3 were dcam, however, all 5 were milk spotted. I, too, wonder about these big groups...........

On another note, CopperCoins........I have over a full roll of 60's proof cents pulled from flat packs if you're interested. Make me an offer, I'll prolly take it.

dorkkarl · September 11, 2003 2:03AM

there are plenty of sets that have been steamed open , inspected & resealed. in fact, i'd say a majority of "unopened" sets are in fact unopened, but NOT "never-opened".

K S

Russ · September 11, 2003 2:18AM

<< I am just curious because Russ and some others got me thinking about AH kennedys, so I figured unopened sets would be a good chance to try to find them >>

The fact is that my very best scores have come from opened sets, not "unopened" sets. Many sellers and dealers don't know about, care about, or don't know how to recognize the variety so one can find them already opened and listed with an image. Just verify the scan first. Since sets are basically a commodity item, many sellers use stock images.

Personally, I believe that somewhere in the range of 80% to 90% of the alleged "mint sealed" sets are not. They have been opened at some point in their life and either resealed in the original envelope or repacked in a fresh envelope. There are both reprinted and original unused envelopes readily available on the market.

The eBay "unopened" proof set listings remind me of the loaves and fishes story in the Bible. They just keep reproducing, seemingly of their own volition, just like a miracle.

BTW, this is why I sell off the coins in tubes rather than left in the mint celo. They can never again appear on the market as "mint sealed" sets.

Russ, NCNE

fivecents · September 11, 2003 2:55AM

There are plenty of original unopened flat packs avaliable. I opened 49 sealed 1964 proof sets and found 9 AH Kennedys. I sent them all to PCGS. I did not have the same luck with finding the cameos. I found mainly cameo cents and quarters.

I have heard that Val Webb has a certain system for spot checking groups of proof sets for cameo coins. He is the man when it comes to pre 1965 proof sets. He is probably more knowledgable than ANY other person. imo

ebaytrader · September 11, 2003 2:55AM

We easily buy at least over a 1000's legit unopened sets a year, very common to see them from 1959-1964 mint sealed. Im sure their are 100's of thousands more still sitting in boxes unopened.
These years were hoarded by speculators in the 60's in large quantity, along with canadia p/l sets and bankwrapped rolls..
I beleive it is safe to presume that most all are original mint sealed, particulay when you see large lots of them.

Regards to all.
Brian

Russ · September 11, 2003 3:16AM

<< These years were hoarded by speculators in the 60's in large quantity >>

Yep, and they were ripped open by the millions when silver was at $80 an ounce.

<< I beleive it is safe to presume that most all are original mint sealed >>

Unless one purchased them directly from the mint at issue or finds them in the original mint sealed shipping box, it's not safe to assume anything. The government sold off huge volumes of surplus proof and mint set envelopes. What do you think happened to that material?

After buying several thousand of these "sealed" 1964 sets, I can state with a very high degree of confidence that most all are not original sets. Most all have been opened at some point in their life. It's really pretty naive to believe otherwise.

<< Im sure their are 100's of thousands more still sitting in boxes unopened. >>

I'm sure there are also. But, there were many millions minted. If one judged by eBay one would assume that there are many millions that were never opened. Logic alone makes that highly improbable.

Russ, NCNE

4thStooge · September 11, 2003 4:00AM

<< The vast majority of "unopened" sets are opened, and re-sealed in an after-market rip-off envelope. >>

<< Yep, and they were ripped open by the millions when silver was at $80 an ounce. >>

Two posters without a clue. OR, two posters that blantantly lie attempting to stear others away from sales that interest them.

<< We easily buy at least over a 1000's legit unopened sets a year, very common to see them from 1959-1964 mint sealed. Im sure their are 100's of thousands more still sitting in boxes unopened. >>

The simple truth.

dorkkarl · September 11, 2003 5:18AM

i'd agree that there is probably a plentiful supply of never-opened sets, but i'd still contend that there's an even larger supply of "un" opened sets - that were opened at 1 time.

K S

ebaytrader · September 11, 2003 7:07AM

I also beleive that opened sets constitute a mere fraction of the total mintage, even so, that would still leave a large amount of unopened sets.
For the record I am only speaking of my experience of buying coins and proabably conservatively 100's of thousands proof sets from the public for the last 25 years.
Other folks with the same or longer experience may beleive otherwise, would sure like to hear their experiences to see if they coincide with mine.
Also, I have no problem with disagreements and will always be happy to explain my point and listen to those of others, just please, nothing personal, lets keep it informative and most of all educational.

Regards to all
Brian Kuszmar

ebaytrader · September 11, 2003 7:26AM

Also..
Ditto what an early post said, Val is a gentleman and a fine dealer. The stacks of unopened sets behind his table are often all new purchases he made at the show,anyone that knows him knows his stuff is not picked through rersealed sets, matter fact, he would be the first guy to help you identify such sets if you couldnt on your own.

In large lots, I always spot check a few to make sure they are not damaged. Even though I sell them as is no return I do not want to buy a large lot of damaged sets then have to lose money on them because we do not want to bury anyone in bad sets. And like most guys that spot checks large lots, if the set you spot check is a cameo cherry then you will either ask more money or open more up and hope there is a large enough quantity of good coins to pay for the premium you just lost paying for unopened sets.

Regards
Brian Kuszmar

segoja · September 13, 2003 11:21PM

Val is one of the best dealers around!

He has been buying and selling proof material for over 20 years that I know about.

If he says they are original sealed sets, they are.

I've bought some of his sealed deals, and had good luck with them

cladking · September 14, 2003 12:37AM

Some of the most active and avid collectors nowdays are looking for moderns in high
grade where ever they can be found. They get a great deal more attention than their
numbers would otherwise warrant simply because they are being so successful, but the
fact remains that this is still a niche market. There have been many millions of mint and
proof sets made and modern collectors simply do not have access to large numbers of
the surviving population. Many of these sets are in old hordes but many more are sit-
ting in dresser drawers and old coin collections. Many of the original purchasers of these
coins still have them in collections and many know nothing of gems, cameos, or AH's.

What this means is that there are still many high quality coins available in opened sets
of the last half century. While many of the gems have been siphoned off, significant
numbers of sets have not been checked. The percentage of sets which are original on
the market varies widely depending on denomination and date but even heavily picked
over sets like the SMS's can still sometimes be found which are not cherried. Just be-
cause a set contains no gems, doesn't mean it was cherried. Most of these sets had no
high quality coins as they left the mint. One really needs to have an idea for the frequency
at which the best coins and varieties were made to know if a sample is original or not. If
you look at 100 SMS's and you find that a top quality coin is there but that 80% of the
second best coins are missing then it's safe to assume that 80% of these sets had already
been cherry picked and 20% had not. But what if random chance had left no top quality
coins in the sample? It would be easy to conclude that these sets had all been picked clean
even though that was not the case.

The best way to find most of these sets is in the original unopened shipping packages, but
many of them are very rare this way. I get to look at a lot of sets but haven't seen any of the
unopened SMS packages for over 20 years except for one box of 1965's a few years back.
The curious thing about these unopened packages is the huge number you have to see be-
fore you find a gem. Though once you do find one there's a good chance that every like coin
in the package will also be gemmy. When this occurs one of them will often be a top quality
coin.

However you collect this is a great hobby, but people ignoring the modern coins are missing
out on a lot of fun that may be a once in a life time opportunity. These sets are disappearing
at an accelerating pace and there are not large numbers remaining for many of them. The or-
ginal owners are dwindling in numbers and many of these have long since hit the market.
While the market for the coins is still small it too is rapidly growing at a time that the supply
could suddenly be greatly interrupted. When these sets are all spoken for the only source
for the coins will be those which have been sets aside and for the main part they were mostly
ignored over the years.

I have to ask....repeated sales of "unopened" 1964 proof sets?

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I have to ask....repeated sales of &quot;unopened&quot; 1964 proof sets?

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I have to ask....repeated sales of "unopened" 1964 proof sets?