Do top graders really know NT from AT?

Cam40 · September 4, 2003 5:51PM

Have they been flooded with so many toned pieces that they HAVE to slab some of the questionable ones
so they dont lose a whole lot of business?

Does `market acceptable` really mean AT to you?

Is / will ` market acceptable` destroy the tone market?

FrattLaw · September 4, 2003 6:12PM

I heard that at best each grader can hope to achieve is about 80% on the whole AT vs. NT question.

With multiple graders, that percentage might increase slightly, however there will always be a rate of error.

For example if a major 3rd Party Service grades 90,000 coins per month, and using 20% of that being toned material (18,000 coins) even with a success rate of 85% you would have to figure conservatively 5% of the slabbed toned coins might be AT. In numerical terms, 900 coins per month are getting by the graders.

Or in other words -- 10,800 coins per year.

This is were the term "market acceptable" comes into play. Obviously dealers and 3rd party services don't want to admit to AT slabbed coins, so we'll just call them "market acceptable" so we can still unload them. Its rather a nice way for the 3rd party services to say "we screwed the pooch" on that coin. So yes, to me "market acceptable" = AT crap.

And yes, I believe that "market acceptable" coins will destroy the market.

As Shakespeare said, "would a rose, by any other name, smell so sweet?"

Well I say, "why wouldn't an AT POS (to paraphrase DHall), by any other name, still be a AT POS, if it wasn't called "market acceptable?"

Michael

Cam40 · September 4, 2003 6:22PM

POS? Piece of scrap?

islemangu · September 4, 2003 6:38PM

Yes they can tell the difference MOST of the time. Thats why I gravitate towards older slabs before the toning craze and coin types of toning thats easy to see real. Yeah...reholder..I think Ill wait. If the AT scammers never get exposed...then I;ll take and deserve the last laugh

Steve27 · September 4, 2003 8:32PM

No they can't tell most of the time, that's why the coins come back in a body-bag with the statement "questionable toning," because they don't know with certainty. They only know what they have seen in the past, before AT was rampant.

greghansen · September 4, 2003 8:46PM

I agree with 90% of what Frattlaw said.

My only minor variation would be that I don't think AT will 'destroy' the tone market. I think it will destroy the heavy premium that people currently pay for 'market acceptable' color toning, but it won't make people quit buying these coins all together. Some collectors prefer this look, and I think there will always be that group of collectors who would rather have a certified MS64 color toned coin than a MS64 white coin. I would just expect the premium for colored toning to disappear almost completely over a period of years as the doctors get better and get more and more of their work in circulation. There is NO LIMIT, after all, to how many of these coins they can make as long as a white coin is available for them to work on, a grading service to slab it, and a buyer to pay a premium for it.

pmh1nic · September 4, 2003 10:42PM

It seems to me that the major services have the attitude that when in doubt bag it, especially when it comes to high end coins. What's left are coins that are either NT or the ATing is so good that it's market acceptable or considered NT. The same holds true with respect to blast white coins. How many coins that have been dipped (another type of doctoring) get slabbed because evidence of the dipping isn't readily visible or whatever evidence is present is considered market acceptable.

All in all I think the major services do a good job and if they utilized the best available technology (as mentioned by Frattlaw in an earlier post) they could probably do better although the cost might be prohibitive.

homerunhall · September 5, 2003 12:55AM

I have seen coins come out of B. Max Mehl holders (in the old days) that were somewhat crude heat job blatant AUs...described by BMM in his hand as "Uncirculated," so this is nothing new.

Say it ain't so Max!

PS...the other possible explanation, pf course, is that someone switched coins and used the BMM holder to try and pass off an AT POS.

Cam40 · September 5, 2003 12:59AM

shouldnt that be all one acronym? ATPOS? artificially toned piece of scrap?

poptopsRus · September 5, 2003 1:17AM

There is so much AT crap out there it's silly. And yes sometimes, here and there, it does make it into plastic because some is so difficult to tell. PCGS does a very good job in determining what is NT and what is AT, but I know of some AT stuff that has made it into plastic. I have also sent stuff in that I know was NT but came back BB as well, but I can't blame them, because it just looked too good to be true. On a recient submission that just came back I had a great blue & purple proof quarter that got bagged. It was NT because I cut it out of the set myself, but had it made it into plastic most would still think it was AT because it is just too nice. They can't catch everything, nobody can, but they are doing the best job they can.

nwcs · September 5, 2003 1:19AM

I'm sure the top graders are better than 99.999999% of the rest of us at detecting problem coins when they spend enough time looking.

Do top graders really know NT from AT?

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