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If a dealer is selling a coin that shows as a pop 1, but knows that more...
Russ
Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
...have just been made but are not yet showing in the pop report, should they divulge that information to the client during the purchase negotiations?
Let's say, hypothetically, that we're talking about a PR70DCAM Kennedy Half. And let's say, hypothetically, that this coin shows a pop of 1 early in the week when the sale is made. Suddenly, on Thursday when the pop report is updated, it becomes a pop 7 coin. In other words, six new coins just got graded in one week.
Let's say, hypothetically, that this is a dealer who specializes in these things and it is, hypothetically, VERY likely that he purchased it from somebody who submits in high volume and would be aware of the results of those submissions.
In this hypothetical situation, I believe that this dealer would have a very real ethical obligation to tell his client that the pop was about to go up by 7 fold. What do you guys think?
Oh, and those so inclined can save the "see how stupid it is to buy pop top moderns" schtick. It's tired, and that's not what this thread is about.
Russ, NCNE
Let's say, hypothetically, that we're talking about a PR70DCAM Kennedy Half. And let's say, hypothetically, that this coin shows a pop of 1 early in the week when the sale is made. Suddenly, on Thursday when the pop report is updated, it becomes a pop 7 coin. In other words, six new coins just got graded in one week.
Let's say, hypothetically, that this is a dealer who specializes in these things and it is, hypothetically, VERY likely that he purchased it from somebody who submits in high volume and would be aware of the results of those submissions.
In this hypothetical situation, I believe that this dealer would have a very real ethical obligation to tell his client that the pop was about to go up by 7 fold. What do you guys think?
Oh, and those so inclined can save the "see how stupid it is to buy pop top moderns" schtick. It's tired, and that's not what this thread is about.
Russ, NCNE
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Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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If neither of those apply then why mention it?
K S
If the seller was aware of the fact that the coins did indeed hit the PR70 DCAM mark and the population went up 7x, then if made a difference to the customer and the customer asked, yes, I think he is ethically required to divulge that information.
If he merely knew of someone that sent the Kennedy's in mass bulk and wasn't sure of the outcome of the grades, then no, how can he speculate on what the grades would receive if he didn't know for sure?
I wouldn't sell a coin and say, "Oh, by the way, I just submitted a thousand of these last week so you may not want to buy it from me because the population is going to go up in this grade." That would be dumb business but if the population makes any difference to the buyer, he wants a pop 1 coin and you are aware of 6 others that just made it a pop 7 coin, heck yes, you should tell the buyer.
I think the dealer with that sort of knowledge is somewhat like a company insider trading in stock. There is probably no such regulations like there would be for a company insider, but morally, there is an obligation to come forth with that information before the deal is done.
But that's my opinion, not the law.
funny how this scam only works w/ slabs...... never had this problem w/ a raw coin.
K S
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I guess it would depend if the seller is advertising the coin as a pop 1 or if the buyer asks about the population. >>
Exactly, if you think the person is buying it *because* it's only pop 1, then I think it's unethical not to mention it. If they are just buying the coin and don't seem to care about the pop, then it doesn't hurt to tell them (since they won't care anyway), so you might as well go ahead.
<< <i>
Exactly, if you think the person is buying it *because* it's only pop 1, then I think it's unethical not to mention it. If they are just buying the coin and don't seem to care about the pop, then it doesn't hurt to tell them (since they won't care anyway), so you might as well go ahead. >>
Might as well tell them what you ate for dinner last night too
Do dealers usually give the pop numbers when selling a coin?
I think most people who buy a low pop coin realize that more can be "made" at any time. And if they cared about the pop would ask.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
On the flip side, is it fair to the dealer if the coin is returned a day later because the population changes? They just put out x dollars and now take the hit because the pop number increases, tough call. I would like to think some of the dealers I have delt with would give me the heads up because they want the repeat business. I have had a few dealers tell me not to buy a coin because it is was over priced.
Rich
<< <i>I guess it would depend if the seller is advertising the coin as a pop 1 or if the buyer asks about the population. >>
In those two examples, the dealer MUST disclose. Knowing others have been graded means it's no longer a pop 1 (false advertising) and if the buyer asks, the dealer would have to outright lie to not disclose his knowledge of the other examples.
To go further, if the dealer has reason to believe that the buyer's interest is based on the pop number, the dealer ought to tell.
I guess if the coin wasn't advertised as a pop 1, and someone calls to buy the coin and doesn't ask about the pop, then it would be OK not to mention it. No expectation of the coin being a pop 1 was created.
For some strange reason, this seems cut-and-dried to me for a pop 1 coin, but when I thought about an example of a pop 5 coin where the dealer knew one more had been made but not shown in the pop reports yet, I didn't see it the same way.
I do not understand dorkkarl's "Heck no" answer. I don't think you would support lying about a pop number, so could you explain why you think it would be OK to advertise a coin as pop 1 and let someone buy it when the seller knows it is no longer a pop 1 coin?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Greg
Is this coin priced correctly. wheter this means if it is a pop 1 coin or if it is raw is it graded correctly. I think that ANYONE that buys a pop 1 coin knows that they are taking a chance that another one will be graded at some point. the older the coin the less likely another coin will take it down lower than a pop 1.
should the dealer tell a client the coin is a pop 1 knowing full well it is not a pop 1? no
Do you KNOW that the dealer KNOWS it is a pop 1? that is where the whole point to this lies. (pun?)
The best dealers I know are the ones that price their coins according to the best estimate of rarity and not strictly according to pop numbers. They are also the ones who will go out of their way to inform the collector about the coin being purchased which would include how rare a coin really is.
The dealer knows the pops are about to jump so he marks the price down on the coin a good amount and does not say or advertise the coin is a pop 1 or whatever.
The buyer thinks it's a pop 1 coin and will remain that way so he does not bring up that it is a pop 1 coin incase the dealer is not aware and might blow his bargain find.
The dealer dosen't say anything about it because the buyer never asked.
Hmm...
Say a 1940 cent in 68 is pop zero. Let's also say that the first one "made" would probably trade for about 22K. (Don't laugh, it could happen!) Let's also say that (based on similar coins that have traded) it is understood among the players in that market that a second coin might only bring 8K, a third 5K, and so on.
Now, let's say I get twelve 68's back from PCGS today. (Again, don't laugh!) Let's say that there is no way for anyone to know how many were "made" without asking me. Now, if I quote someone 22K for a single piece and say nothing more, does the price quoted in any way create an implied representation that the coin is (to the best of my knowledge) pop one?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
K S
<< <i>The dealer knows the pops are about to jump so he marks the price down on the coin a good amount and does not say or advertise the coin is a pop 1 or whatever. The buyer thinks it's a pop 1 coin and will remain that way so he does not bring up that it is a pop 1 coin incase the dealer is not aware and might blow his bargain find. The dealer doesn't say anything about it because the buyer never asked. >>
I don't see any problem, since no claim was made that the coin was a pop 1.
<< <i>Now, let's say I get twelve 68's back from PCGS today. (Again, don't laugh!) Let's say that there is no way for anyone to know how many were "made" without asking me. Now, if I quote someone 22K for a single piece and say nothing more, does the price quoted in any way create an implied representation that the coin is (to the best of my knowledge) pop one? >>
I don't see how a particular asking price could imply anything at all about a pop number.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Or to put it another way should the buyer say "You know thats a pop 1 coin and worth alot more than you are asking."
1. The hypothetical buyer is not a rookie or a newb and is very experienced in the series.
2. The hypothetical PR70DCAM Kennedy half was fully priced for a pop 1 coin.
3. The hypothetical buyer and the hypothetical dealer have hypothetically done many thousands of dollars in transactions, mostly involving hypothetical low pop PR70DCAM coins.
This is, of course, all hypothetical.
Russ, NCNE
It is wrong and maybe illegal to knowingly withhold population data from the pop report. Since when the coin is slabbed it is already in the computer data base somewhere, how tough would it be for the pop report to be updated the moment the grade & serial numbers are assigned?
I suspect that there is more to the story. I have PCGS coins slabbed years ago that still don't show. I think it's more incompetence than a willful withholding of the info.
Of course the dealer may not know or just not think about it at the time but I belive he probably would.
<< <i>This little game that is played by not updating the pop report until a dealer gets a chance to market a coin as a pop 1 or 2 is UNETHICAL. >>
HJP,
The pop reports are updated every Thursday morning without regard for who may have received submission results since the previous week. PCGS does not withhold updates based on whether or not a dealer made some pop top coins.
Their system could certainly be improved, but to believe that out of about 20,000 coins graded per week, some are deliberately selected to be withheld from the Thursday update is more than a little farfetched.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>i find it ludicrous that someone would try & SELL a coin based on "pop" #'s, much less BUY a coin based on such. to me, it's a non-issue, since "pop" is just so much bull-sh*t used by scam artists to ratchet up coin prices.
funny how this scam only works w/ slabs...... never had this problem w/ a raw coin.
K S >>
Actually this is an effect much more of the internet than it is third party grading. People started
getting big into high grade coins back in the mid-1980's. The common advice back in those days
was to buy the best you can afford and many people took this to heart. High grade is also likely
a natural reaction to the increased mintages begun in the early 1930's. There have been no rare
or even scarce regular issue coins made in many years. It was the internet which made it possible
for people to vicariously screen large numbers of coins to find the best. The grading services simply
made it easier.
In an established dealer/collector relationship as Russ describes in the clarification, it is in both
partys' best interest to fully disclose.
First he must be an ebay powerseller.
Second he must have the coin on memo.
Third he must say "done deal" and sign an invoice.