Is there ONE toned Morgan that is universally acknowledged as the finest?

SethChandler · August 26, 2003 4:31PM

Hey look, we all know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder...but does one coin really stick out?

Lots of talk around here about toned Morgans has opened up an interest on my part.

Just curious,

Seth

GAT · August 26, 2003 4:36PM

Guess you want to start an argument about who has the best toned coin. Flame away, I am staying out of this one.

mnmcoin · August 26, 2003 5:18PM

Whatever it is, I am sure Sonnier owns it.

morris <><

GAT · August 26, 2003 5:40PM

nmncoin...........Don't assume that GSA owns the best toned coin. Seems there's a clique here that assumes they are the best of everything, coins etc.......

GAT · August 26, 2003 5:44PM

mnmcoin that is, sorry.

Hadleydog · August 26, 2003 6:05PM

Although I can't say I have seen one toned morgan that I would consider the finest, the most beautiful set I have ever seen are the 3 78-CC's gsaguy owns. They are unforgettable.

Legend · August 26, 2003 6:19PM

I have seen an 82S NGC MS66 that was privately owned by a major dealer (its with a collector now). 10 years ago this coin was worth $5,000.00 (that was a standing offer from another dealer). What you have to understand is, the average MS66 Morgan at the time was worth $200.00.

This coin blew away any I had ever seen. It had neon reds/golds/pearl greens/etc with killer burlap bag toning dots. Its the kind of coin that unless you saw it, you couldn't understand or imagine it.

If this coin were for sale today, my guess, it would sell for at least $10,000.00. The scarey part, the collector also has an 82S in NGC MS68 thats darn close!

FC57Coins · August 26, 2003 7:54PM

Actually, this is a very good question, because it points to the diversity of toned coins. Ten different people can look at ten differently toned coins, even of the same date, and each can select a "best looking one" based on color, toning pattern, overall appeal of the coin, etc. Personally it's very difficult for me to select a best from say a grouping that includes a coin with very vibrant color, one that has nice color set against a DMPL background, especially in a pristine coin, and one which has an unusual pattern of colors.

A couple of interesting side notes to this commentary: Unless you have actually seen monster toned morgans in person, you may thnk that some of this stuff that's on Ebay is actually pretty good. Some of it might be, but in actuality, the really breathtaking ones are rarely seen in this venue. You just have to see some of these things in private collections to appreciate the comment. The second interesting thing about it, is that at some point, and this point varies from coin to coin, grade makes absolutely no difference whatsoever with respect to the value of a monster toned coin. Let me explain.... If you run into a monster toned coin, something really superbly colored, no visual distractions whatsoever, that coin, by it's sheer beauty, will bring X amount over bid. That amount will not vary greatly, or at all, whether the coin is in MS66, 67, or 68, unless the intrinsic value of the coin is tied into it because of rarity. If you have an 81S dollar that is just out of this world gorgeously toned, and say it has a value placed on it by a learned collector of $10k, and the coin happens to be an MS67 coin, the coin will not go up by an equal increment if it gets graded MS68 the next day. The price tied into the coin is more related to the toning than to the grade at this point.

dorkkarl · August 26, 2003 8:23PM

the answer is a simple "no"

K S

ArtR · August 26, 2003 8:32PM

<< but does one coin really stick out? >>

I guess I have looked at too many Monster Dollars over the years to put a title of #1 on a certain dollar. Gsaguys 78CC's are incredible coins not only for color, but the dates. (78 CC's are not supposed to look like that) His icon which carries the name of the Minneapolis Monster is a great coin.
A guy in Kentucky has a collection that came out of the Continental Bank hoard. He has a 79-S DMPL that is a knock your socks off coin. So as you can see I can't come up with one dollar that sticks out.

<< Is there ONE toned Morgan that is universally acknowledged as the finest? >>

This question can not be answered by anyone unless they have viewed all the toned Morgans in existence, which I'm sure no one has.

jbsteven · August 26, 2003 8:52PM

I would have to say odds on favorite would be one of GSAGUY's coins. I agree his icon coin would probably be in the top three in my book.

I wonder if PCGS would do a "showdown" at a show for us to see? GSAGUY? you game?

nwcs · August 26, 2003 9:19PM

Considering how subjective aesthetic appeal can be, I'd say there would be no toned morgan that would be universally acknowledged as the best.

ArtR · August 26, 2003 9:25PM

<< I wonder if PCGS would do a "showdown" at a show for us to see? GSAGUY? you game? >>

This probably won't work as there are toned collectors who are very quite about their toned dollars. The guy I mentioned out of Kentucky is a good example. He doesn't make shows, and what buying he does right now is from other collectors and Auctions that he does not attend in person. He has a couple of friends who attend, and Bids for him. It sure would be fun to see, but like I stated some of the best would not be present.

Tonekiller · August 26, 2003 9:27PM

GAT,

I am not assuming that GSAGUY has the finest toned Morgan’s……I personally know he does. IMHO!

I had the privilege last year with several other dealers to view his private top coins at a dinner. These are coins that he does not carry around but brought just to show us. The 78’s were part of the set that we looked over. After viewing 1000’s of toned coins I still use his collection as a benchmark for the best.

This is not a cool aid fest for Sonnier, but a simple truth.

TBT

Placid · August 26, 2003 9:37PM

What would make anyone think the finest anything would ever be seen by them?
It could be sitting in a bank deposit box where it has been from the time someone who is 90 put it when they were 20.

Such a thing is simply impossible to claim for 100% sure. The best you could come up with is finest known and even that would be subjective.

Yes some coins like the 1913 V nickel would be different because its known only 5 were struck and all five have been seen.

ArtR · August 26, 2003 10:43PM

<< I am not assuming that GSAGUY has the finest toned Morgan’s……I personally know he does. >>

TBT, You need to reword your post, and call it the way I call it, "that he has the finest toned collection I have ever seen." As I stated in my other post none of us has seen all the toned dollar collections in existence.

Tonekiller · August 26, 2003 10:57PM

<< 

<< I am not assuming that GSAGUY has the finest toned Morgan’s……I personally know he does. >>

TBT, You need to reword your post, and call it the way I call it, "that he has the finest toned collection I have ever seen." As I stated in my other post none of us has seen all the toned dollar collections in existence.

>>

Done. I agree with your post Art. Looks like we need to set down to dinner and look over your coins also...

TBT

ArtR · August 26, 2003 11:12PM

<< Done. I agree with your post Art. Looks like we need to set down to dinner and look over your coins also... >>

You may be a bit disappointed after looking at Gsaguy's Morgans.

PQpeace · August 26, 2003 11:15PM

It looks like I will have to pull out my 1878 8tf ms66 monster..
I will put this one upo against any other Morgan

Larry

jbsteven · August 26, 2003 11:23PM

Larry:

Whip it out!

PQpeace · August 26, 2003 11:25PM

I would love to show it off with a picture,but I am unable to do it justice..
beautiful full obverse color,that looks like glass....
I will be happy to bring it to the next show for the shootout

Larry

why am I up so early ??

Dahlonega · August 26, 2003 11:44PM

In my youth got to look thru many original bags of Morgans and like most others always paid attention to a pretty Morgan dollar. Recently got to look thru GSA guy's stash and although there were some more valuable the one that burned in my memory which I nicknamed the 'Black Opal'. So although probably not his most expensive this coin was the one that 'blew my dress up'. If I ever find a cherry red CC dollar I will offer not Moon money but Mars money for it...this would be my Morgan fantasy? coin. So for now it's the 'Black Opal'...has fire with reds and greens beneath the toning on the face that a picture doesn't capture.

ArtR · August 26, 2003 11:45PM

PQpeace
I believe I viewed the coin that you mentioned when it was in the hands of the previous owner. Have to fall back on my saying the best I have ever seen in the 78P category. Just a Great coin. I put this in the same classification as Gsaguy's 78 CC's. Very tough dates with monster color.

PQpeace · August 26, 2003 11:47PM

Hi Art,
thanks..
it did belong to Dale last year..

gemtone65 · August 26, 2003 11:50PM

Andy Kimmel of Paragon Numismatics probably has sold and seen more high quality toned dollars than anyone else in the field. His web site (rainbowtoning) shows about 10 of his all-time favorite gem toned dollars which he has acquired over the past 16 years.

Andy says that these coins are among the finest toned dollars in existence. They include some pieces that he's kept for a very long time, and others which he held for a very short time. in the latter category is GSAGuy's Minneapolis Monster, which Bryan somehow was able to acquire from Andy soon after Andy purchased it. I've seen this piece in person, and have no doubt that it belongs in the top 10 of all time -- maybe higher.

Nevertheless, Andy's picture archives has other pieces of equal or possibly better eye appeal that apparently even GSAGuy hasn't been successful in obtaining. In particular, Andy's Comet coin is noteworthy. I've seen this piece twice in person, most recently at this year's ANA show. When I first saw it in 1997, Andy refused to part with it for $10,000. He called it the finest toned dollar he's ever seen. His view hadn't changed in the past 6 years. And, I'm inclined to agree with him.

dragon · August 27, 2003 12:00AM

Some of the most spectacular toned pieces I've ever seen were when the Continental Bank Hoard was first discovered and gone through, and also the display at Paragons table at the ANA in Chicago a few years back.

Some of the amazing -S- mints that I originally saw in the Continental Hoard have presumably been put away for good, as I have not seen any of those coins I remember since that time.

dragon

jbsteven · August 27, 2003 12:00AM

gemtone

I saw the same "comet" coin at the ANA and it is a nice piece but I believe GSAGUY's Minneapolis is better IMO.

he would not sell the "comet" to me either.

SeattleSlammer · August 27, 2003 12:07AM

Wow, all this back and forth and no pics posted.....bummer.

SeattleSlammer · August 27, 2003 12:10AM

This one isn't too shabby, as far as PCGS 66DMPL coins go (!!!). That's right, 66 DMPL.

Louis · August 27, 2003 12:10AM

Here's the Comet they've been talking about.

edited because the size of the picture. Made it smaller.

jbsteven · August 27, 2003 12:13AM

seattle

nice Mike DeFalco coin, looked at it last night.

SeattleSlammer · August 27, 2003 12:28AM

jbsteven,

I just posted Mike's website address in another thread (numisvision.com)....I'd love to see that coin in person! How would you rate that 66 DMPL compared with other PL or DMPL toned Morgans you've seen?

ArtR · August 27, 2003 1:00AM

<< Andy Kimmel of Paragon Numismatics probably has sold and seen more high quality toned dollars than anyone else in the field >>

I Agree! Andy was in it just about by himself back then, and had the market cornered. He has sold many great toned Morgans.

Now to Andy's Comet. It is color wise a monster, but the value of the coin in my opinion lies in the very unusual and colorful Textile. Without the textile, I have seen many toned dollars that approach it and pass it color and luster wise. As I stated My Opinion.

It all adds up to what Frank (FC57coins) and others posted. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What I may call beautiful toning, in others eyes it is no more than ugly tarnish.

pontiacinf · August 27, 2003 1:03AM

ask mike casper

gsaguy · August 27, 2003 2:39AM

Thanks all for the comments about my collection of toned Morgans.

I'd first like to say that my collection in no way represents a contest of any sort. It represents about 20 years of searching for the 'right' coins...those that I like, and wish to own. To me, that should be the goal of all collectors.

Whether talking to dealers trying to explain what I'm looking for, examining thousands of pieces that don't even come close to what I'm looking for, comparing notes with collectors who share my interests, or chasing down pieces I've heard about, it's been a labor of love and to me, that's what collecting should be all about.

As ArtR and others have pointed out, no one has seen all the toned Morgans there are to see and even if we did have them all laid out in front of us, we'd probably each pick a different piece. I know that's usually the case when others view my collection. Heck, I can't even pick out a favorite piece!

And perhaps at times we do appear to be a 'clique'......especially to those who don't appreciate monter-toned coins. But I can honestly say that some of the best friends I've made in my entire life are the collectors and dealers that I've met through my quest to assemble my collection. I believe those friendships will last long after our coins are passed to the hands of others.

Good post Seth.

GSAGUY

ArtR · August 27, 2003 3:56AM

<< Whether talking to dealers trying to explain what I'm looking for, examining thousands of pieces that don't even come close to what I'm looking for, comparing notes with collectors who share my interests, or chasing down pieces I've heard about, it's been a labor of love and to me, that's what collecting should be all about. >>

It's also a lot of fun.

TONEDDOLLARS · August 27, 2003 4:59AM

Amen to that Bryan.

jbsteven · August 27, 2003 5:07AM

<< But I can honestly say that some of the best friends I've made in my entire life are the collectors and dealers that I've met through my quest to assemble my collection >>

very nice of you to talk about me that way.

gemtone65 · August 27, 2003 5:53AM

The Continental bank collection of gem toned dollars is properly mentoned by Dragon in regards to this thread. The part of that accumulation of which I am familair was sold by Superior in a 1987 sale. There were 211 pieces offered, of which an astounding 70 were catalogued as being MS67.

The coins generally had gorgeous rainbow colors with unique sunblast luster. They had a certain look that you would be able to spot even if found without explicit reference to the bank hoard. I too have not seen many surface in the ensuing years.

At a time when monster toned gem dollars were selling for $250-$300, 75 of the dollars in the Superior bank hoard sale brought in excess of $1000, and 3 in excess of $3000. In contrast, the recent Mauer sale of toned dollars, containing 306 pieces, had only 2 coins receive high bids above $1000. So, if anyone really wants to own the best toned Morgan dollar, and is ready to pay for it, they would be wise to track down those 3 pieces from the Superior sale. Of course, locating and acquiring almost any coin from that sale would be a coup.

Typetone · August 27, 2003 6:04AM

It's not a Morgan, but the best toned dollar anywhere bar none is JC Wang's 74D PKOK IKE in PCGS MS67. I've seen it and there is no other coin anywhere like it. Major dealers have seen it and agree. It is however, devilishly difficult to photograph. It's as if the coin won't allow anyone other than its owner to view it. No kidding on this. JC, if you can photograph it accurately, please show it for our amazement. If the coin were for sale, which I'm sure it's not, it would go for a minimum of $10K, and probably more like $25K to $50K.

Greg

gsaguy · August 27, 2003 6:12AM

<<Of course, locating and acquiring almost any coin from that sale would be a coup.>>

Interesting comments about that Superior sale Gemtone65. I did track one down and it's an amazing coin.......one of the plate coins in the catalog. He paid $2500 for it in 1987, which must have seemed an astounding price at that time. He's promised me first shot at the coin if he ever sells.

Personally, I hope he never HAS TO SELL it.

GSAGUY

BTW, when purchasing the Minneapolis Monster from Andy, he told me that the coin was the favorite piece of dealer Ed Milas who handled many toned coins from the Continental Illinois Bank Hoard.

gemtone65 · August 27, 2003 6:22AM

GSAGuy: Do you know the lot number? I have the plates. Also, no coin sold for exactly $2500, or $2750 with the buyer's fee. If you could get the precise high bid, I could find the picture in the catalogue.

barberlover · August 27, 2003 6:30AM

Hey GSA Guy,

I thought I was the Minneapolis monster !!!

Les

Oak · August 27, 2003 6:42AM

More pictures. Less talk!

That comet coin is nice-nice.

gsaguy · August 27, 2003 6:49AM

Gemtone,

He paid $2500 to a dealer who had bought it at the sale. I'm not sure of how much the dealer paid, but it'd be easy enough to figure out IF I could remember the lot number.

He showed me the plate photo and had the auction lot number taped to the holder. The coin had lots of blues and if I remember correctly, had something of a V-shaped area of textile, down low...in the lower cheek and neck area....perhaps sort of yellowish in color.

If you sent me scans of any comparably toned coins from the sale (via e-mail), I think I could easily point it out.

GSAGUY

P.S. Next time we get together, I'd love to see that catalog.

stujoe · August 27, 2003 7:55AM

Barney's.

Bear · August 27, 2003 8:03AM

It is not possible to have a consensus on the one greatest toned Morgan, but it would be

possible to agree on the top 20 toned Morgans of all time. At least untill another hoard

hits the market place. Also, it is highly possible that a number of superb toned morgans have

been sitting in collections and estate holdings for 50-100 years.

ANACONDA · August 27, 2003 1:55PM

I've seen the comet. It is awesome. I'd pay close to $5,000 for it.

Howeve, Bryan Sonnier owns MANY coins that blow that coin out of the water. He won't tell you that, but brother, it's the truth.

Bryan owns a PCGS mint state 68 monster i offered him $10,000 for. He laughed and then took the coin from me. Little slices of that coin appear in between my terms in my auctions.

(I'd pay him way more than 10K for that coin but not until he counters me and the coin is up for grabs.)

Sonnier doesn't own the finest collection of Toned Morgans. He owns the finest and the second finest collections because if you split his collection in half, there still isn't a collection around that will beat half his toned morgan collection.

If anyone thinks they have a better collection of Morgans than Bryan, I want to see them.

I'll pay $1,000 if anyone can produce a collection of Morgans better than Bryan's.

By the way, i own the 66DMPL.

ArtR · August 27, 2003 8:43PM

<< Some of the amazing -S- mints that I originally saw in the Continental Hoard have presumably been put away for good, as I have not seen any of those coins I remember since that time. >>

dragon, It is incredible how so many of the toned dollars in this hoard just went off the market and have not been seen since. I don't know how many toned dollars were in the Hoard, but I have been told there were quite a few. The guy I mentioned in one of my post to this thread the guy who owns the 79-S DMPL has about 100 toned Morgans from this hoard. They were all purchased from a dealer when the hoard was first dispersed. Of all the toned dollar collectors I know he is the only one that has more than one or two in a collection.

This just strengthens my point that there are some great toned dollar collections out in the field that none of us have been able to view.

ArtR · August 27, 2003 9:04PM

Anaconda
I agree with your statement on Bryans (Gsaguy) collection. As I have stated before The finest I have seen. The guy that owns the morgans from the Continental Hoard runs second to my eye, for the simple reason that he had a few coins in his collection that I personnaly did not care for or as dalonega would say "Blow my skirt up" Gsaguy does not have a coin in his main collection that I would not want to own. This is the only thing that seperates the two collections.

If you were to put 15 or 20 of the best coins owned by each individual on display it would be a tough decision to say which were the best.

barberlover · August 27, 2003 9:07PM

Doesn't it make you wonder about the people who have owned "monster" dollars since before they had to pay huge money to get them why they don't sell if they could get 5 to maybe 20 K for them and show no interest in selling ?

Are they so independently wealthy that they don't need that kind of money ? Or do they really love there coins so much they don't think about something so volgar [spelling?] as how much there prize beauties are worth ?

Let me put it this way, if someone offered me twice what I paid for my favorite coins [like my sig. coin] I'd turn it down, but if someone offered me more then 10 x what I paid, thats a horse [or coin] of a different color!!! Green that is.

Les

Is there ONE toned Morgan that is universally acknowledged as the finest?

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