PCGS slabs an 1880 5c MS66 !!! (or ???)

Sunnywood · August 15, 2003 11:53AM

As some of you know, I have written extensively on the subject of 1880 shield nickels, and have yet to see an uncirculated specimen that truly looks like a business strike. Recently, I was offered a coin that certainly could have been a mere PR64, but it was in an MS64 holder, and asking about TEN TIMES sheet for an MS!!! As you can imagine, I passed on the coin. Now I noticed that the pop in MS65 just went form 3/0 to 4/0, and then relatively soon thereafter to 3/1. This likely means that someone made a 65, and then got it bumped into a 66 holder. I sure hope this coin is a true MS, not just another "prooflike business strike."

Does anyone know the whereabouts of this new PCGS MS66 ?? Who owns it ?? Who has seen it ?? Is it for sale ?? Which die is it struck from (Breen-2515 or Breen-2516)? What die state? What characteristics does the coin have that led PCGS to slab it as MS instead of proof? (Hopefully not just "the edges" ... which are not visible in the holder !!)

I would like to see the coin for numismatic research purposes, even if it is not for sale. I have collected a large amount of data on MS shield nickels, and this coin could represent an important opportunity to increase the knowledge base for this difficult issue. If anyone has a lead on the new 1880 5c PCGS MS66, please PM me or e-mail me at:

The Sunnywood Collection

Thanks !!
Sunnywood

roadrunner · August 15, 2003 1:04PM

Sunnywood, I sent you a PM on this. I heard the story from the dealer handling this coin (at the ANA) before the old PCGS 65 coin made 66. Sounds like it was the real deal.

roadrunner

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · August 15, 2003 2:33PM

With nothing personal against Sunnywood aka Douglas Kurtz I can honestly say he is full of it.I own the ms 64 that he is referring to in this thread.At his request I had the coin examined by David Hall,Ron Howard John Dannreuther and David Akers who all said my coin was mint state.After I sent my coin to Doug Kurtz,a chisel was made for my coin as well as a trade for overgraded Barber quarters.I refused and also found out that Mr.Kurtz sold his shield nickel collection.IMO Doug Kurtz is a total jer_ off who doesn't deserve the time of day.

stewart blay

wondercoin · August 15, 2003 3:12PM

"With nothing personal against Sunnywood"

Stuart - Well thank goodness your comments were not intended to be personal.

Regarding the new PCGS-MS66 1880 Shield Nickel, it is, without question, the "real deal" and, in that grade, possibly the rarest regular issue MS nickel in a holder today (Shield, Liberty, Buffalo, Jefferson).

Douglas if you are coming out to Long Beach, it should be on display.

And, yes, I acquired most of Sunnywood's incredible MS, Proof and pattern Shield nickel collection for a customer a short while ago and it was a treat to handle such wonderful specimens assembled with such loving care.

Wondercoin

ohbaby · August 15, 2003 3:16PM

With nothing personal against Sunnywood aka Douglas Kurtz I can honestly say he is full of it.I own the ms 64 that he is referring to in this thread.At his request I had the coin examined by David Hall,Ron Howard John Dannreuther and David Akers who all said my coin was mint state.After I sent my coin to Doug Kurtz,a chisel was made for my coin as well as a trade for overgraded Barber quarters.I refused and also found out that Mr.Kurtz sold his shield nickel collection.IMO Doug Kurtz is a total jer_ off who doesn't deserve the time of day.

stewart blay

oreville · August 15, 2003 3:25PM

Stewart: I am not fully understanding you.

A chisel? Is this a numismatic term? I am confused.

roadrunner · August 15, 2003 11:00PM

The price that was offered at the ANA (sight unseen) truly amazed me. While it is not more expensive than the few highest priced buff nickels, it is getting up in the rarified air. Then again, I looked for circ 1880 nickels for years from 1975 onward, and was lucky to find a single "good" (G4) coin. And more than likely it was a circulated proof.

roadrunner

wondercoin · August 16, 2003 12:26AM

"The price that was offered at the ANA (sight unseen) truly amazed me. While it is not more expensive than the few highest priced buff nickels, it is getting up in the rarified air. Then again, I looked for circ 1880 nickels for years from 1975 onward, and was lucky to find a single "good" (G4) coin. And more than likely it was a circulated proof."

RR: I agree. Well, you start with a REPORTED regular issue mintage of just 16,000 coins. I say "reported", because it is certainly possible that the Mint never struck that many specimens? Also, until now, it has been universally believed that all of these 16,000 MS coins were struck from just the (2) distinct proof dies. By Long Beach, I believe this newly discovered MS66 will shed additional light on that belief.

It would be great if Sunnywood can also make it out to Long Beach for a private viewing of this great coin

Wondercoin.

Sunnywood · August 16, 2003 2:26AM

Stewart,

Your response to this thread shows what kind of person you are. I respected your anonymity, and did not mention that it was you who offered me the 1880 5c PCGS MS64 at the remarkable asking price of $25,000. I also refrained from mention of your very rude behavior.

For anyone else reading this, let me set the record straight. A couple of months prior to ANA, just after Central States, I was told about this 1880 "MS64" by two other respected dealers on these Boards. Both dealers had seen the coin at Central States, and both thought it was unquestionably a proof. Despite this, I expressed interest in the coin by PM'ing Stewart here. We corresponded, and he told me the coin was being sent to PCGS for their comment as to whether it was MS or proof. I thought this was a good idea. But I myself did not actually see the coin in question until it was sent to me right before ANA. Only then did I learn the that the asking price was $25,000. I examined it, and determined that while it might very possibly be an MS, it was sufficiently prooflike in all respects that it did not warrant the kind of outrageous price that a truly frosty no-questions MS might bring. In any case, I was not interested in this coin at $25,000, regardless of the one-line letter from David Hall stating that he agreed with the MS designation.

At ANA, sitting by Pinnacle's table, I returned the coin to Stewart. Stewart asked me to make a counteroffer. I declined. I simply wasn't interested in the coin once I had seen it. Yes, it is true that I had expressed interest prior, but as we all know, one has to see a coin to know whether one is interested. Stewart was visibly annoyed that I wouldn't give him $25,000 for this coin, nor make a counteroffer. Sorry, but I reserve the right to pass on coins that I dont like. For the rest of ANA, Stewart was incredibly rude to me (I won't relate the childish details). I do not need people like this in my life. Coin collecting is a hobby - for fun. I had never met this person before ANA, nor do I wish ever to encounter him again.

If anyone out there (other than Stewart) thinks I am a "jerk-___" because I refused to pay him $25,000 for a coin that I didn't like, please let me know what I could have done differently. I am always interested in being a better person. I wish the same could be said of others.

Sunnywood

Sunnywood · August 16, 2003 3:05AM

By the way, I did not say that the coin I was offered was a PR64. I said that it might be a business strike, but that due to its prooflike characteristics, it was not the KIND of MS that would command a 10x premium.

By contrast, the MS65 that was recently upgraded to MS66 (and apparently acquired by wondercoin?) sounds like the kind of MS that WOULD command such a premium. This is not because of the high grade, but because the coin is said to LOOK unquestionably like an MS coin. Shield nickel specialists have all been waiting to see an 1880 like this. A true no-questions MS would rightly command a huge premium.

Let's look at the numbers: sheet for PR64 is only $325 ask !!! Sheet for MS64 is about $3050 ask, but they are virtually non-existent. So a true, no-questions, frosty, lustrous MS-looking specimen in a PCGS MS64 holder might well command a big premium, maybe $10,000 - $15,000 if there's a buyer out there. But you don't pay $25,000 for a coin that in your own gut you believe might only be worth $325 !!!!! (Even accompanied by a letter from David Hall !!! The letter mentioned no numismatic reason or feature of the coin that led PCGS to slab it as MS.)

Sunnywood

roadrunner · August 16, 2003 3:15AM

I thought this post was originally soliciting information on the MS66 1880 nickel. As it turns out, just another basing thread. Sorry I attempted to get involved and pass along some first hand information. It's no wonder serious collectors are rarely posting or reading.

roadrunner

Cam40 · August 16, 2003 3:23AM

Thats what its looking like to me too now. `I have a $25,000 nickel here. Here you buy it from me...WHAT? NO?

Well , Then trade me something for it at the $25,000 price range....WHAT? NO? WHY YOU SCUMBAG. WHATS WRONG WITH YOU.
Your an IDIOT. Good LUCK then PAL!!!!!`

Dont anyone tell me to butt-out. Afterall it WAS posted in the public forum.
Do PMs if you dont want comments like this. OK?

EVillageProwler · August 16, 2003 3:26AM

Cam40,

Stewie has positives to be sure, but diplomacy and fair play are not among them.

EVP

Max · August 16, 2003 7:26AM

With all the stuff in life which is really important (like one's health, family, friends, etc. in case you did not know) we get one yo-yo who sounds like he is ready to go postal because Sunnywood declined to buy his coin. Is it really that important?

I often wonder if people act like this in their everyday lives. Yelling, abusive, roadrage types. I thought I was bad given my 1/week daydreaming!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS, i feel an apology is in order no matter what you think of Mr. Kurtz. Inexcusable.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · August 16, 2003 10:06AM

Sunnywood - I think you should read what you wrote about MY coin.It could have been a mere PR 64, at 10x sheet.(ask) I certainly passed. I believe my coin has feelings too and I defend my coins.I know the truth and you should realize what you did and further putting your story out on a thread publically.(to gain sympathy)
An offer was made for my coin through your friend Mitch (wondercoin)I had no idea as to value.I owned the coin for ten years.That offer was $25,000 and I agreed to sell at that price.After you gave me the coin back at the ANA a $15,000 offer was conveyed.
Later in the show you showed me a PCGS box of your overgraded duplicate barber quarters and asked me if I wanted to trade.Mitch conveyed to me that he bought the 1880 in ms 66 for over six figures.Therefore $25,000 is not out of line for a mint state 64.

To further show your character you have just registered your collection that you sold to Mitch more than six months ago.Please explain this to your sympathizers.

Stewart

wondercoin · August 16, 2003 10:22AM

Stewart: Just to be 100% clear and accurate, last night you asked me the question:

"What is the value you put on an ms 66 1880 nickel?", for which I told you I believe the coin is a "6 figure" coin.

Also, I was quoted $25k for your coin (from our mutual "middleman")and I really do appreciate having first shot at that coin. That, simply, was not the coin for my customer, who desires the very highest grade possible

Wondercoin

Sunnywood · August 16, 2003 10:35AM

Stewart,

I never mentioned in my initial post that it was your coin. Your response, including publishing my name, is outrageous. But you also blew your own cover. There are EIGHT 1880 nickels certified by PCGS as MS64. I could have been talking about any of them, as far as Board members were concerned.

Your facts regarding my Registry Set are quite incorrect (not that I owe you an explanation). I owned MANY MANY examples of each shield nickel date. After I sold sets of proof and MS coins to Wondercoin, I still owned OVER 100 SPECIMENS. Wondercoin can tell you how deep my collection was. I could have registered as many as four distinct complete sets on the PCGS and NGC Registries. I still own about sixty shield nickels, including many unusual variety coins, as well as pop-top specimens. In any case the set I put up there has been retired, and was posted only to take its rightful place on the "all-time" list. Even so, it is merely the "tip of the iceberg" in terms of the Sunnywood Collection.

I don't know what the selling price of the 1880 MS66 was, and I haven't seen it yet. But the point is, according to Wondercoin, that coin looked unquestionably MS, while yours simply did not. Therefore, in my own personal opinion, the price asked for your coin was not warranted. Further, you don't even know me, and you had no reasonable basis for your post on these Boards, which was both reprehensible and indefensible.

Sunnywood

wondercoin · August 16, 2003 10:42AM

"I owned MANY MANY examples of each shield nickel date"

Sunnywood - Unfortunately, that was not the case as far as the pattern Shields was concerned and I drool at some of the coins I placed with my customer as I stare at those empty holes in my own personal pattern nickel collection

Wondercoin

sinin1 · August 16, 2003 11:46AM

A rather interesting thread and I hope that my comment here is not deemed grossly inappropriate relative to the previous posts (are should it be deemed appropriate?)

joejeweler · August 16, 2003 12:15PM

Geeze......where's "Bear" when you really need him?

Gentlemen........swords or pistols?

BTW.......i don't think it appropriate to EVER reveal another persons true indentity unless that person has made it clear it's OK. Where would we be if Superman, Batman, and the Lone Ranger had been outed before their careers were over?

wingedliberty · August 16, 2003 12:49PM

Such personal laundry should not be aired in public, but none of us have access to a time machine.
Having read this thread, two things are obvious.

1. Sunnywood has conducted himself like a gentleman.(thus far).
2.STEWARTBLAYNUMIS is not someone I will ever do business with or recommend.

ohbaby · August 16, 2003 1:19PM

i don't think it appropriate to EVER reveal another persons true indentity unless that person has made it clear it's OK

Well said and unfortuunate it has to be said! Common sense should prevail here.

joejeweler · August 16, 2003 1:39PM

Ohbaby, i didn't recognize you for a second.......

............really miss the squirrel and his "friends"!

Maybe i'm "nuts", ......but i was thinking of buying the rights to that image..........

........... but i doubt the owner would have entertained such a "low-ball" offer!

Oldtrader3 · August 16, 2003 2:43PM

I agree with the argument that one's actual identity should remain anonymous on these boards, except maybe for exposing gross fraud or criminal activity. This thread does not qualify and any harm that may have been done to Sunnywood is inexusable. I certainly do not blame him for feeling personally attacked and maligned. Coin values and grades for low-pop keys are still very subjective (sometimes personal) and can be controversial. If you have differences and you wish to get personal, make it PM.

EVillageProwler · August 17, 2003 12:11AM

BTW.......i don't think it appropriate to EVER reveal another persons true indentity unless that person has made it clear it's OK.

Certainly many others besides Stewie Blay also do not share your sense of netiquette.

EVP

PCGS slabs an 1880 5c MS66 !!! (or ???)

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