1955 DDO cent. Questionable?

ChrisTucker · August 6, 2003 3:45PM

Saww this on E-Bay. What do you think?

Is it fishy that you say no returns and it's guaranteed authentic in the same paragraph?

I am no expert either, but I see no polish marks on reverse where Your suposed to see them.

Here is a blown up pic...

.

Now looking at the obverse CENT.

.

Don't know if you could see it or not... Does the pink coloring look natural?

I'm new to this game.......

cherrypickincoin · August 6, 2003 3:50PM

First, it wouldn't even grade AU in my opinion. Maybe EF, but not AU. As to the authenticity of the coin, I for one cannot tell by a photograph. These coins should not be purchased raw unless they are sight-seen or encapsulated or unless you are willing to take the risk.

haletj · August 6, 2003 4:19PM

There have been several threads about this guy's coins and much detail like even what type of counterfeit's he's selling. It is ridiculous. I'm so sick of these scams. Look how much people are spending and giving him positive feedback. How can these buyers be taught not to buy expensive raw coins on ebay? Why can't ebay provide coin information to new people with stuff to keep them safe? Why can't ebay shut this seller down? This is out of control.

WACoinGuy · August 6, 2003 4:25PM

<< Don't know if you could see it or not... Does the pink coloring look natural?

I'm new to this game....... >>

Mine (which is graded by ANACS) has a slight blueish-pink tone to it on the reverse. Listen to the other folk's advice -- this is a commonly counterfeited coin and the buyer should beware buying this raw off E-Bay based just on some pictures...

DCAMFranklin · August 6, 2003 4:36PM

Why would you ever consider bidding on a raw, uncertified, coin for that kind of money?? You definitely don't do so without a return privilege. Ever!

If the seller won't provide a return privilege (be SURE to ask), then don't bid on the auction whether the coin is in a holder or is raw.

Deadhorse · August 6, 2003 4:38PM

I'm far from and expert and I can tell you this one is a counterfeit.

The "L" at nine o'clock should be crowding into the rim on a real one. That's just for starters, but it's what I look at first.

Deadhorse · August 6, 2003 4:42PM

Is there some sort of penalty if a person was to email the bidders and tell them it's a fake?

Emailing the seller would just get you insulted, but letting the buyers know might do some good.

DCAMFranklin · August 6, 2003 4:43PM

Here is another, recent thread about the same seller and the same date/type coin:

Double Die

Plenty of great information provided about the diagnostics.

cherrypickincoin · August 6, 2003 4:45PM

Here's mine, I don't see the L crowding the rim though. Where's coppercoins at??? You still awake?

DCAMFranklin · August 6, 2003 4:46PM

<< Is there some sort of penalty if a person was to email the bidders and tell them it's a fake?

Emailing the seller would just get you insulted, but letting the buyers know might do some good. >>

Yes. If the bidders report you to the seller or Ebay, then Ebay will suspend you, indefinitely, for auction interference. Not wise.

Deadhorse · August 6, 2003 4:49PM

<< Here's mine, I don't see the L crowding the rim though. Where's coppercoins at??? You still awake?

>>

Hmmm....well I said I'm no expert. Seems to me I had read that several times regarding the "L".

DCAMFranklin · August 6, 2003 5:02PM

Here is a very nice example, with big photos, to use for comparison. It is very nearly red, so the detail is nice.

MS-65 RB

ChrisTucker · August 6, 2003 5:57PM

BTW, never ever thought of buying it......

theboz11 · August 6, 2003 8:24PM

Put this one on you blocked list. He buys circulated ebay coins, cleans them, then claims they are Mint state when he sell them. Guy is a scammer, well know to forum members.

coindaughter · August 7, 2003 12:49AM

Coinguy, Mark Feld, posted this to the wrong thread. Here is what Mark said:

********

I just sent the the following message to the seller - will let you folks know if I receive a reply:

Dear seller,

Your 1955 cent is an obvious fake. You state in your listing, "all sales are final" but you also say "guaranteed authentic" - which is it?? What is the guarantee if there are no returns allowed??

It is against ebay policy, not to mention that of the U.S. Treasury Department, to sell counterfeit items such as this.

If I don't receive a satisfactory explanation from you and if the sale is not pulled by noon, Saturday, P.S.T., I will contact Ebay's fraud department and the proper governmental authorities.

Sincerely, a concerned Ebayer

-------------------------
Mark Feld of Pinnacle Rarities

website

millennium · August 7, 2003 1:01AM

<< Your 1955 cent is an obvious fake. >>

I wouldn't say obvious.....I have had one of those fakes that was pictured on the counterfeit site. This coin, while I would NOT buy it unslabbed, is not OBVIOUS. I am not sticking up for the seller. I just don't think it's obvious enough to threaten the seller........

coinguy1 · August 7, 2003 1:05AM

millenium, you make a fair. I would not have used that terminology if the seller didn't use doubletalk, such as "guaranteed genuine", while at the same time stating that "all sales are final".

GaCoinGuy · August 7, 2003 1:22AM

I'm not expert, but looking at the 2 coins, there's something not right about the date........the spacing on the upper bar of the 5 especially.

coinguy1 · August 7, 2003 1:38AM

Thanks coindaughter.

JxnBoy · August 7, 2003 1:42AM

Refer to this site:
Excellent site on fake 55 DDO's

It's the counterfeit where the "L" crowds the edge:

Whoever put this site together here has tons of great information.

David

coppercoins · August 7, 2003 3:15AM

1. I cannot verify the authenticity of the coin in question by looking at the photo provided - I very very highly doubt anyone else could. Not to say I'm better, the fact of the matter is that the photo is not of quality to make such determinations - period.

2. The coin does NOT grade AU. It is a suspect cleaned low end AU details coin that I would net VF if cleaned. Once again, the photo is not of quality to make such a determination.

3. A little experience viewing the real thing (10 or more examples) would be enough for anyone with any mind or eye for detail to be able to authenticate these on their own. The fakes are usually obvious fakes given knowledge of the minting process and the details exhibited on the real thing. The outright blanket fear of attempting to authenticate on one's own is a cop-out for using the slabbers as a crutch and excuse not to educate one's self. If you have interest in owning a 1955 doubled die study them...that's the best way to know what you are getting. I'll caveat that by saying that I am accusing nobody and I'm not saying this because I read it in this thread. It's just a general feeling I get from reading posts in this forum. Too many people afraid of learning on their own - it really is possible.

4. The coin exhibited on my site is ONE example of a fake, not a determinant for ALL fakes. The L crowding the rim is but one marker that helped determine the coin shown to be fake. Don't pay too much attention to ONE detail, look at the big picture. Most of the details on that coin were wrong.

5. My personal opinion is that the photos of the coin are simply a lack of equipment to do the job properly, not an attempt to hide anything. Crucifying the seller without examining the coin personally is not right and very unprofessional. Doing it right would involve buying the coin to protect the rest of the world, then authenticate it and take the proper action. Enough said.

P.S. - JxnBoy: Thank you for the kudos on the site. I am the owner and author of coppercoins.com

coppercoins · August 7, 2003 3:19AM

<< Is there some sort of penalty if a person was to email the bidders and tell them it's a fake?

Emailing the seller would just get you insulted, but letting the buyers know might do some good. >>

Yes...it's called libel. If the coin is genuine, which you nor anyone else can determine from the photos provided, the seller could sue you for attempting to damage their reputation....and in my non-legal opinion, they would have one hell of a case.

edited: In actuality, it doesn't matter if the coin is genuine...they'd still have a case. You would not be employing the proper channels to deal with the matter going behind the seller's back.

cherrypickincoin · August 7, 2003 3:19AM

Congrats again on the site coppercoins. When are all those links going to be fixed?

Russ · August 7, 2003 3:25AM

HMM...this guy offers up two raw 1955 DDOs in the space of a very short time, and all sales are final. Gee, that's sure not suspicious.

Russ, NCNE

coppercoins · August 7, 2003 3:25AM

Cherrypickincoin - Believe me, I work on the site daily...not a single day goes by that I'm not gone from the state on vacation (which is rare) that I don't do something to further complete the site. It is, however, a huge undertaking and I am but one person. I do what I can when I can. Let me know the particular links you are talking about and I can attempt some sort of time line for you. The crux to the matter, however, is that the site is not finished and will not be for a number of years. I have not "released" the site to the public, it's just "there" to enjoy for what it is until I can get it completed - probably still another five years out.

coppercoins · August 7, 2003 3:29AM

<< HMM...this guy offers up two raw 1955 DDOs in the space of a very short time, and all sales are final. Gee, that's sure not suspicious.

Russ, NCNE >>

By no means did I say there is no suspition here. I am suspitious as well, which is why I'm not the high bidder on this item. The point is, until someone here can provide some proof as to why this coin is definately fake, there's no grounds to crucify the seller. Without any knowledge of the history of the item, it's impossible to determine with reasonable accuracy that the coin is anything but as advertised.

coinguy1 · August 7, 2003 5:41AM

After a few not-so-pleasant email exchanges (and I accept at least partial responsibility/blame for that), the seller stated:

"Whatever, but the "fact of the matter" is, the 1955/55 we have on eBay auction now is genuine, and we will guarantee that 100%."

DCAMFranklin · August 7, 2003 7:32AM

<< The point is, until someone here can provide some proof as to why this coin is definately fake, there's no grounds to crucify the seller. Without any knowledge of the history of the item, it's impossible to determine with reasonable accuracy that the coin is anything but as advertised. >>

Very well said Coppercoins!

Mark- Perhaps the seller doesn't appreciate someone, who has never seen nor held the coin in question, swooping in from who-knows-where with an email implying that he/she doesn't know an authentic coin from a counterfeit? Not many of us would welcome such an insinuation. If he/she took offense to your insinuation, I don't believe I blame them. I certainly wouldn't bid on such a coin, uncertified, without a return privilge, but that sure doesn't stop a good number of his customers. Virtually perfect feedback, so he/she must be doing something very well.

Russ · August 7, 2003 7:52AM

I wonder which one of his "AU" 1955 DDOs this VF became?

Russ, NCNE

ksteelheader · August 7, 2003 8:28AM

The outright blanket fear of attempting to authenticate on one's own is a cop-out for using the slabbers as a crutch and excuse not to educate one's self. If you have interest in owning a 1955 doubled die study them...that's the best way to know what you are getting. ...I totaly disagree with this! For everyones information, the coin on coppercoins.com website was mine. I had the article from a counterfieting detection book with me when I bought the aforementioned coin. The dealer I bought from is an ANA member and been in business for 30 years. We both examined the coin thouroughly. We were both convinced that it was authentic. ANACS disagreed. If you want the real thing, buy on that is authenticated by one of the better grading services. Would I buy anything like that again that was raw??? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!!!!....Ken

coppercoins · August 7, 2003 8:53AM

Once again, Ken, I was not pointing the finger at you, and it seems you are taking offense to what I say. First of all I do not own a 1955 DDO cent and never have. I will eventually, but the budget has never allowed for such. Being that as it is, I am 100% confident in being able to pick the real ones from the fake ones because I have seen a couple dozen real ones and a fake one. I also understand the minting process and the process for hubbing dies. I was NOT trying to discredit you in any way, nor am I still - but anyone with a full understanding of the process and some knowledge in cents would easily be able to tell the rounded edges on the coin you sent to me as a huge red flag for a counterfeit coin. That along with the cut marks in the date and motto, separating the devices in the doubling that their die did not quite separate on its own. I'm NOT saying you're dumb, foolish, or anything else - many people would have easily been fooled by that coin, and you did a great service to the readers of coppercoins and this forum by allowing me to photograph it. What I AM saying is that if a person has a genuine interest in collecting these coins, it is of paramount importance to understand hub doubling, to understand the minting process, and to know how to tell them on coins, as well as study a number of examples before buying one IS enough to tell on your own whether one is real or fake...same thing with spotting cleaned coins, AT coins, tooled coins, and other problem coins. If you study something before spending a grand on it, you get to know what it looks like when it's right, so you can immediately spot one that's wrong.

I am in no way condoning what this seller is doing, nor am I saying it is necessarily right to bid on an online auction with amateruish images on a coin with so much potential in value and potential in being a counterfeit. If you want to buy a good one, study them first, get to know them, then set out for the example that matches your needs at your price. It does NOT have to be slabbed if you're properly prepared and know exactly what you are getting into. THAT was the point.

Edited: BTW, meant to say I have see a few fakes - not one. A slip. I also meant to mention that the reason I do not have one nor have I ever owned one is because I want one in a nice uncirculated grade. For my purposes having one in VF would not be good enough. I've been saving and holding out for the best one I can get to cross my path.

ksteelheader · August 7, 2003 9:02AM

Chuck, nowhere and in no way am I saying that you are pointing the finger at me. My point was that I had the counterfieting book, and a dealer who has 30 years experience, and neither of us saw it as anything but genuine. Yes, you personally could probably pick out the real thing raw. BUT, most people can't! If someone that can't tell the real thing from the counterfiet wants one, then a slabbed coin is the way to go. I know that you don't like slabbed coins, and that is your right, but some people do....Thanks, Ken

coppercoins · August 7, 2003 9:11AM

Ken - one question...

How many had you studied closely under at least 16 power magnification in good light BEFORE you purchased the one in question?

No amount of experience buying and selling coins with a cursory interest in a doubled die is going to help anyone know what to look for in a counterfeit copy of a doubled die, and a few minutes (even hours) spent studying the pages of a book is not going to help much either. I have closely examined every single one I have come into contact with, and yes, I have actively sought them to study because I am interested in purchasing one, and no, I am NOT going to trust a piece of plastic to tell me it's real. I will be sure of that on my own. Whether it happens to be IN a piece of plastic is of no matter to me as long as the selling grade and price are right...regardless of what the plastic says.

Edited for grammar. Sorry.

dpoole · August 7, 2003 9:28AM

Chris,

I got back into the hobby in 1999, like many people here, after a long hiatus from childhood. One of the icons from childhood (like the 1909-S VDB and the 1913 Liberty Nickel) was the 1955 DDO.

Part of my primer for re-entry coin collectors is to recount with them one of my very first Ebay deals: a raw 1955 DDO Lincoln! I remember it was billed as high quality, belonged to his dad, a dealer had told them it might me an MS70, etc., etc. Brilliant red photo. I won a spirited auction for something like $1800. Guy had low feedback, no return policy. Here came the coin, rattling around in an envelop. In contrast to the glorious red of the photo, the coin was dead brown. Both NGC and PCGS subsequently designated it authentic (lucky) but AU. Could not get a response from the seller, safe harbor was no help, dealer soon disappeared. At least it wasn't conterfeit!

Everybody but the wisest of us probably has stories like this about when they reentered the hjobby, though maybe not so expensive.

I will tell you, though, that most of what is raw on Ebay has problems. As has been pointed out here, no one would be selling an icon like this DDO without having authenticated it, as that small invstment would greatly enhace the draw and the bidding.

Congratulations for coming on here first to ask. I only wish I'd been smart enough to do this.

Now that you're here:

Never buy raw on Ebay
Never buy uncertified coins
Avoid the second tier services on ebay
Never buy without a return policy

That way, you'll only get scr**ed once in a while!

ldhair · August 7, 2003 11:01AM

<< using the slabbers as a crutch >>

You bet. A great crutch at that.

Sure, being able to verify the authenticity of a coin is great but
most folks should buy the 55 DDO in a slab.

If one has a broad interest in the hobby it's really difficult
to be an expert in every area.

I would never risk money betting if a coin is a 68 or a 69.
No fear. No cop-out. No excuse.
I just don't wish to spend the time.
I get sick of folks talking down to others about how they view the hobby.

I feel I can authenticate a 55 if it's in my hand (not from an image) but,
l I spent 40 years to get to that point.

Buy it slabbed or be able to return it.
Spend your time in the hobby doing what you wish to enjoy

1955 DDO cent. Questionable?

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