Back to the old days...Membership is now required to submit.

Basilone · July 22, 2003 7:36AM

Sorry for the mulitple board posts (it is on the regular vintage board)....but this is important!

As of Sept. 1st....Collector's Club membership is required to submit cards for grading!

John

SayitaintsoJoe63 · July 22, 2003 8:08AM

Interesting business concept......Business so good, you need to drive customers away.

braves72078 · July 22, 2003 8:36AM

Well, that will definately stop my submissions. I understand they need to make $$$$$, but damn they will be the only company to charge a "membership" fee.

I can see SGC and BGS getting my business. I refuse to pay a "fee" to have the privilege of submitting cards to PSA.

Looks like we are headed backwards instead of getting better.

Now we are expected to pay a "membership" fee so we can have commons graded that many times won't sell for the grading fee unless they are 9's and then sometimes its close.

Just my .01

Braves

metalmike20 · July 22, 2003 8:51AM

I don't like this at all, this was the whole reason I quit submitting cards to psa in the 90's to begin with. This might work out for some people but not for everyone. Personally I don't want the SMR every month, I already get it online when I'm in town, which is only 5 months of the year. Even with the free gradings it is still costing me more for stuff I DON'T WANT. I only submit 2-3 times a year and now it will cost me $100 on top of grading fees, come on PSA lets move forward not backwards.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

autosoft · July 22, 2003 9:04AM

Well you guys have been very fortunate for the last while...

Canadian collectors who want their cards graded by the #1 service PSA, have to pay the membership fee in order to submit our cards..

So guys welcome aboard..

brucemo · July 22, 2003 9:07AM

I don't need ANOTHER copy of Joe's book. I already have TWO, one that I bought when it first came out, and one that I got when I renewed my collector's club membership.

The free gradings are almost meaningless to me, since they charge so much for return shipping. If it's going to cost me $20 to get the cards shipped back to me, that isn't a free grading, it's a $3 grading. This is better than what it used to be, which was a $5 grading, but it's not, nor has it ever been, free.

I have a little pile of "free gradings" on my desk. I figure that it would cost me about $200 to use them, since supposedly they can't be combined.

The return to manadatory Collector's Club membership is in fact going to drive down the number of submissions. Is this crazy or what?

bruce

gaspipe26 · July 22, 2003 9:16AM

I am a member and I signed up again in Feb, I'M STILL waiting for my 1st SMR mag.

brucemo · July 22, 2003 9:58AM

That's a case where you call PSA, complain, and they fix it. If someone drops the ball, you can't assume that they'll figure it out eventually.

bruce

Pinchdatail · July 22, 2003 10:04AM

I'm not supporting PSA's decision, but here's a couple of guesses from a business standpoint.

1. PSA dropped the membership requirement hoping to spur NEW client growth. They are a public company and the market only values two things, growth and profitability.

2. New clients probably provided a much lower volume of business growth than anticipated.

3. NEW clients may have done more onesey-twosey business, driving down profit margins. PSA probably makes their needed margins on high volume/bulk submissions.

4. Former members who never renewed eliminated a valuable revenue stream and provided no corresponding incremental growth with their savings.

5. Joe looked at his Income Statement and said "bad idea."

ALTERNATIVE RUTHLESS GUESS:

1. PSA: "We have the market leverage and this didn't pan out like we hoped. Bring back the membership requirement because we won't lose that much business, and the business we do lose will come back because the buying public will pay a premium for our brand.

Either guess could be true, but it is what it is.

Pinchdatail

Davalillo · July 22, 2003 10:35AM

The latest brilliant Joe Orlando decision. Just means I give the cards I need graded to a $5 per card bulk submitter. Do not need to join this club.

autosoft · July 22, 2003 10:40AM

<< I'm not supporting PSA's decision, but here's a couple of guesses from a business standpoint.

1. PSA dropped the membership requirement hoping to spur NEW client growth. They are a public company and the market only values two things, growth and profitability.

2. New clients probably provided a much lower volume of business growth than anticipated.

3. NEW clients may have done more onesey-twosey business, driving down profit margins. PSA probably makes their needed margins on high volume/bulk submissions.

4. Former members who never renewed eliminated a valuable revenue stream and provided no corresponding incremental growth with their savings.

5. Joe looked at his Income Statement and said "bad idea."

ALTERNATIVE RUTHLESS GUESS:

1. PSA: "We have the market leverage and this didn't pan out like we hoped. Bring back the membership requirement because we won't lose that much business, and the business we do lose will come back because the buying public will pay a premium for our brand.

Either guess could be true, but it is what it is.

Pinchdatail >>

AND

Since the PSA Set Registry is the new fad ..and now that many collectors are hooked on assembling entire graded sets, who need the SMR and POP report as well as access to their listed sets...that a small yearly fee would probably be acceptable/tolerable ....This fee will probably go to cover salaries of additional Graders, Shippers , Customer Service employees since entire sets are now being submitted including commons...To provide the same turnaround time for grading PSA needs to increase services which costs $$$....

SKINSFAN · July 22, 2003 10:51AM

Autosoft very well put.think you hit nail on the head on all your points

qmayer · July 22, 2003 11:07AM

I, too, do not support this decision. This is going to kill the small collector-submitter (like me). I probably send it 2 or 3 submissions a year of 20+ cards each. I'm assuming there are a lot of people like me. With these smaller submitters gone, I think a considerable chunk of their income will be lost. If they are having trouble paying the bills, stop doing the set registry specials. If that doesn't work, increase each price by $1. It seems to me like a situation where they're amputating the whole leg for a sprained ankle.

Justin

aro13 · July 22, 2003 11:11AM

autosoft-Since when? I just submit my cards through Platinum Promotions - there are no memberships nor will joining this club affect Canadian submitters.

autosoft · July 22, 2003 11:18AM

<< autosoft-Since when? I just submit my cards through Platinum Promotions - there are no memberships nor will joining this club affect Canadian submitters. >>

Yes that is true you can submit your cards through another dealer , however if you want to submit direct you need to join the club.. but this may change if your dealer has to pay new fees as well..

Wayne8348 · July 22, 2003 11:54AM

I guess that I'm going to play devil's advocate here but what they are offering isn't that bad of a deal. I usually use the free submissions for cards I find raw at a show and they have always gotten them back to me at the show. I enjoy the smr magazine and I have no problem paying for the pop reports and smr online. I use the set registry daily and in being free its the best deal I know of anywhere.

I'm sure they have a reason for doing this but it doesn't seem like that bad of deal to me.

Wayne

interchanges · July 22, 2003 12:22PM

Just think, they have to change their submission invoices AGAIN.

I hope they don't print up to many of those at a time, Something's always changing. Maybe buying stock in PSA's printer would be a good option.

BigKidAtHeart · July 22, 2003 12:29PM

<< Just think, they have to change their submission invoices AGAIN. >>

Maybe they are reordering and decided to change
because of that?

7orbetter · July 22, 2003 12:34PM

WOW! I think I would try and figure out how to spend the money rather than lose a share in the market to other companies. This may be the only thing that keeps SGC and GAI alive . . . I know they are hoping this is for real, it's like a second chance in life for them.

BigKidAtHeart · July 22, 2003 12:40PM

The Luncheon Meeting at National is getting Bigger and Bigger!

aro13 · July 22, 2003 12:46PM

Why would a dealer have to pay more fees?

wayne8348-I agree with you, I do not think it is too bad a deal.

acowa · July 22, 2003 12:52PM

Everyone had the chance to jump in at $20 a few weeks ago. This even got you 6 "free" grades. This attitude here sounds like a bunch of 3rd graders (my apologies to any third graders who haven't expressed how this change back to the previous policy will cause the end of the world)

boggs301012 · July 22, 2003 1:00PM

I missed the 20.00 special or what ever but ALAN excuse me I didnt need a Mag that is 0.00 value to me or access to the pop report I use it very rarely. So excuse my attitude second thought don't excuse it.

pc · July 22, 2003 4:01PM

i see this as a product approach.sell us the product and we
get "extras" for free.the underlying benefit to CU is a revenue
stream based upon membership fees rather than income
generated from submissions.this is similar to the brokerage
business approach of fee based business.the idea is to know
what fees you have in the bank regardless of stock market
volatility and the result is managing a company's return on
equity.ROE helps executives compute their stock option bonuses
in advance as they can fire however many employees required to
earn them their bonusses.the point is this program isnt for the
benefit of submitters or collectors but only for Collector's Universe,
the parent of PSA.

purelyPSA · July 22, 2003 4:40PM

Of course this is only beneficial to PSA. They're basically offering something to the public whose variable costs to CU are minimal, while withholding something important to the consumer. It's the old carrot and stick routine. Goes on all the time. I think that PSA has figured that a)while some people will be happy, a lot will be pissed off, b)that some people will leave, but not enough to matter much as far as the bottom line goes and c)that the projected revenue stream from CU basically getting something for next to nothing (other than the costs of doing the free grades) will more than make up for the complaints and potential dropoff in submissions.

I see the business reasoning behind this. However I think PSA gets the shaft not from its existing client base (angry as it might currently be) but from potential new business. The majority of new collectors, I would assume, start small, and if you can a)send to SGC with no strings attatched, or b) pay 100 bucks to belong to a club whose goodies mean nothing to you before you can send in your stuff, well, most people are going to go with the cheaper option, all things being equal. And I would too. So I think PSA's problem is not with us, but the potential new collector who starts small, develops a taste for collecting slabbed cards, and gradually becomes a bigger fish.

FB · July 22, 2003 10:02PM

All in all,

This one doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Even if I only submit 900 cards per year, it only increases my cost to submit by a dime per card - plus, I no longer will sign up for the SMR and Pop report for $22.95 per 6 month period. The only downside is that I just signed up for the 6 month SMR/Pop report service less than 2 months ago!

Basilone · July 22, 2003 11:05PM

Frank-

I had the same situation..and PSA tacked on the extra year at the end of my current subscription (there was no overlap).

John

acowa · July 22, 2003 11:14PM

Boggsy,

Do you need a PSA message board that you can vent on every time you dont like some policy change that PSA makes? Should PSA break down every little service they provide and give a la cart pricing so that you can pick and choose and pay for only the products & services that you use?

PSA has to make business decisions that involve information that we might not be privy to. My point is that everyone had the chance to get on board for $20 (and get 6 free submissions). If you can't justify spending $20 for 6 submissions alone, why would you care if PSA decides to charge a nominal $89 fee?

Many times, I get the sense that everyone expects PSA to cater to every little whim that someone on the message boards dreams up or face an angry lynch mob on their "virtual doorstep" that these message boards represent.

For all we know, PSA may be losing money on customers who submit less than a certain amount of cards/year. Let's look at it this way: If the free submissions are worth $8 apiece, then a person who submits 106 cards per year pays an additional 41 cents per card. ($89 less $48 in free grades divided by 100) That's simply not enough to get worked up about. When I see people with big money collections on this board making a stink about it...I have to shake my head.

Regards,

Alan

Davalillo · July 22, 2003 11:21PM

Alan,

My opposition to this has zero to do with the effect on me--I would not pay to join their club, I would not pay for an smr that is becoming irrelevent and I can submit all the cards I want through dealers at prices I would guess to be no more than $5 per card.
I just think its a poor business decision and agree with the rationale that Zardoz uses in a thread on the other board.

Davalillo

gtbeaker · July 22, 2003 11:27PM

Even though I'm a small submitter, I don't see this as a big deal. I pay my membership fees in order to have access to the online pop reports and SMR. In the past, I haven't submitted many cards outsife of my free submissions from renewing each year, but I see myself starting to increase that number substantially in the next few years as I broaden my collection and start picking up more raw examples. However, I can certainly see where this is a major deterrent to many other small collectors.

autosoft · July 22, 2003 11:50PM

Hey Alan

I have to agree 100 % here ...I am not sure why there is such an outrage over such a insignificant/minimal effect on our wallets.

Are these same people that are complaining about the $89 dollars the same ones who..

..who have taken time off work and booked holidays to attend the National Convention???....paid for planes,trains or automobiles to get there.....rented Hotel rooms for the event, and plan on raiding the mini bars...are willing to pay taxi and other fees back and forth to the convention .....JUST IN HOPES of finding that PSA graded card for your sets!!!!!!......

Yet when the same club they are so proud to be members of and proudly display their PSA graded sets and choose to have their cards graded by because they have MORE value $$$ than other grading services, changes a policy to improve service there is a lynch mob formed....

This is a business decision by PSA and one that in fact is being made for the benefit of the collector...Every business needs a STEADY/Known income base in order to make business decisions... The submission $$$ revenue is variable and does not guarantee a set amount of Revenue...If PSA had increased the cost of grading by $ 1/each then most collectors after submitting their first 90 cards a year would already have paid for the yearly membership...but PSA wants to GUARANTEE the PSA collector the same service that they are accustomed to and therefore need to know where they stand financially...in order to plan their future and Collectors future properly... to determine size of staff, and operating costs and LONG TERM company success

The fee is minimal and PSA also gives you more value in the package for FREE than the cost of the Gold package alone..

PSA is doing this for customer services purposes ..Yes for you Collectors !!!! to provide you with the long term success of PSA.... So all us collectors can enjoy our hobbies and pastimes even more..

PSA does not force you to have your cards graded, that's your CHOICE and your PRIVALEDGE and that costs money.... If you don't like it ...you can go and pick up a couple of boxes of 9 pocket sheets for about $ 89 dollars and protect and display your ungraded cards that way...

FB · July 22, 2003 11:53PM

John,

Your dead on right! My subscription for thru Pop and SMR is now good until October 2005. Thanks for the info.

mcastaldi · July 23, 2003 12:09AM

Alan> Whether I agree with PSA's decision on this or not. . .PLEASE stop beating people over the head with the "could have joined for $20" bit. People acted according to the circumstances at the time. Had people known that membership would become required, I'm quite confident participation would have been higher. At the time the offer was made however, membership was not required so that affected their decision on whether to participate. To beat them over the head with it now like you're doing is equally acting like a 3rd Grader. I mean when the $20 offer was made, I don't remember seeing you on the mountain-top preaching what a terrific deal it was. Maybe I missed it.

Mike

acowa · July 23, 2003 12:13AM

Jim,

All in all...if you agree that the submissions are worth $8 (for the average person)...then $41 is not too much to pay for the other services that PSA provides. Even if you feel that SMR is a joke (and I agree with you there), the online pop reports, the message board, the certification verification, the set registry, the top 200 cards book, the registry luncheon at the National, an 800 number where you can call and get your issues resolved most of the time and at least heard (if not resolved) etc, etc, is well worth $41. Personally, I think the message board and registry alone are worth $41.

Regards,

Alan

Basilone · July 23, 2003 12:15AM

Frank-

To PSA's credit...they added it without you having to make a call to complain about it...they did it on their own. I was suprised...I thought there would be overlap for sure.

John

Basilone · July 23, 2003 12:18AM

<< . Personally, I think the message board and registry alone are worth $41. >>

I agree...$41.00 is a small price to pay to read a full years worth of posts from people b1tching about a product that they have poured their heart and soul (and pocketbook) into!

Strange industry..eh?

John

acowa · July 23, 2003 12:20AM

Mike,

Where would you propose that I beat them? The head seems like a logical place to hit someone. Should I just give them a swift kick to the groin area? There's so many places. What works best for you?

Regards,

Alan

mcastaldi · July 23, 2003 12:31AM

Autosoft> Some things to consider. . .

> ". . .back and forth to the convention .....JUST IN HOPES of finding that PSA graded card for your sets"
Well. . .I attend all three major shows in Chicagoland and usually attend the National. I can assure you, I am NOT looking for already-graded cards. I'm looking for raw cards to submit myself.

> "Yet when the same club. . .changes a policy to improve service there is a lynch mob formed"
Well. . .only time will tell if this business decision manifests itself into the "imporved service" you mention here.

> "Every business needs a STEADY/Known income base in order to make business decisions"
Do you really think that PSA doesn't already know when the peaks and valleys in submission flow occur and are able to account for this in their business model already?

> "but PSA wants to GUARANTEE the PSA collector the same service that they are accustomed to"
This assumes that PSA needs additional human capital to handle overflow volume - or - that PSA faces sufficient cost increases which must, in turn, be passed to the customer. I have yet to see any statement from PSA that either of these is true. Perhaps such a statement is forthcoming.

> "PSA is doing this for customer services purposes"
As above. . .only time will tell. But when they try to charge me $15 to ship seven empty cardboard storage boxes, charge a minimum of $11.50 to ship 1-8 cards at less than $100 total value - without offering viable alternatives, etc. the do have things they can fix. Hey. . .if the increased revenues are used to fix these and other problems, then I couldn't be more for it.

> "PSA does not force you to have your cards graded, that's your CHOICE and your PRIVALEDGE and that costs money"
Well. . .I thought the "privaledge" was covered by my submission fee - which is still out of touch with the current market.

I generally submit through a dealer so this really doesn't affect me much. But it WILL affect people who submit 20-200 cards a year and/or don't leave near a dealer to submit for them. Whether it works out for their benefit in the long run, we'll have to wait and see.

Mike

mcastaldi · July 23, 2003 12:37AM

Alan> To beat someone up over not taking advantage of a special that you did nothing to help promote seems a bit disingenuous. I mean if it was that good a special at $20, why weren't you actively promoting it? Beating people up over it now doesn't do anyone any good.
For what it's worth, I could find no mention of this membership special in looking through the forum archives for CY2003. Using keywords of "join", "club", "membership", "gold", and "$20" turned up nothing.

Mike

acowa · July 23, 2003 12:48AM

For someone that isn't affected that much, you sure seem pretty bent out of shape.



I was actively promoting it. I printed tee shirts and rented a billboard in 50 major cities. I still have some tee shirts available if you want one.

I am NOT beating anyone up Mike. My point was that if someone couldn't justify spending $20 when it includes 6 free grades...price isn't the issue...they're never going to join.

Here's your link:

Regards,

Alan Link to discussion

mcastaldi · July 23, 2003 1:00AM

"My point was that if someone couldn't justify spending $20 when it includes 6 free grades...price isn't the issue...they're never going to join."

Alan. . .I agree with the above statement, but it's not entirely accurate. Price isn't the issue, but you're leaving out the changed environment. We're now operating with knowledge that wasn't available at the time the $20 offer ran. Had people known that membership would be required to submit, do you think more people would have signed up at $20? I mean if PSA ran the $20 Gold Membership Special and at the same time announced the membership requirement, I'd totally agree that people should stop whining. But. . .it didn't work that way.

I'm not getting bent out of shape. In fact, I don't think $89 is all that big a deal if you're even mildly serious. But I also think there are understandable reasons not everyone is happy about it.

Mike

BTW - e-mail me and I'll give you an address so you can send my t-shirt

boggs301012 · July 23, 2003 1:08AM

Alan

I speak my mind and I am venting ? What is it called when you do ? I never seen the 20.00 dollar special had I known I might have joined. I am just tired or PSA changing things. I feel as if they pulled the rug out from under me. When I joined 2 years ago a few months later they changed their poilicy and said you dont need to be a member, SMR after my 2nd issue was worthless how many times could I look at a mag that was 80% duplicate from the previous month. Joe's book I dont need it. Pop report no big thing. I am upset because I have to pay to give them my business? I dont give Walmart 20.00 bucks to shop. (and I dont belong to SAMS club either because they charge)I will finish my set and walk away from grading cards for now. This doesnt help the small guys like me I only submit 100 to 200 hundred cards a year. 90% personal collection. I need to submit 30 or so and I am finished...but I have 120 ready to go when money HAD permitted. ALAN you opinion isnt always the right one. Please stop looking down.

James

FB · July 23, 2003 1:23AM

That is pretty funny...

I check out what you chuckleheads say every day and I missed that big honkin thread on the $20 sign up!!!!! Oh well... maybe my $179 Platinum membership will get me lunch at the Captain's table on Friday!

acowa · July 23, 2003 1:28AM

Boggsy,

<This doesnt help the small guys like me I only submit 100 to 200 hundred cards a year.>

Assuming that you're on the low end (100 cards) the financial impact is 41 cents a card and that's assuming that you place absolutely NO value whatsoever on the registry, the boards, etc, etc. At 200 cards...well you do the math.

<What is it called when you do ?>

I don't know...maybe it's called pointing out the other side of the argument...or maybe it's called being a jerk for not agreeing with you 100% of the time...or maybe it's called talking down to you...or maybe its called introducing some logic to surround all of the emotion that's being vomited all over the boards.



Companies change things all the time...that's life.

<ALAN you opinion isnt always the right one.>

Is there any opinion that's right or wrong? That's what makes it an opinion. I never said that you had to change your opinion. I just introduced facts to support mine.

<Please stop looking down.>

What if I need to tie my shoe laces or take a leak...can I look down then?

Regards,

Alan

boggs301012 · July 23, 2003 1:43AM

ALAN you must have missed this.........I am upset because I have to pay to give them my business? The free grades are no big deal I dont need the faster service and you have to pay seperate shipping because it is on a diffrent invoice. I must mention again I joined befor they changed it. I need to be more blunt the mag stinks worthless. Pops dont need it. Free gardes arent FREE you pay around 3.00 each (after shipping etc/....about)And the #1 reason..... I dont want to pay PSA to take my business. I will say this atleast they gave us some time.

mcastaldi · July 23, 2003 1:54AM

Boggs> "I am upset because I have to pay to give them my business?"

NO YOU DON'T!!!!! Submit through a dealer. The last I checked, they aren't allowed to mark up submission prices.

FB> I seem to remember something about this, but it seems like a long time ago. My Gold Membership had lapsed like 6-8 months before and I seem to remember getting an e-mail offering me a $20 re-joining. I don't remember the specifics, but it's possible it was only open to previous Gold/Platnium members in an effort to get them to re-up.

Mike

boggs301012 · July 23, 2003 2:02AM

MIKE

My statement is correct I have to pay to submitt my cards If I want to to submitt to them I will have to pay. If you read between the lines you might have formed another opinion.

Last time I attempted to submitted, the dealer had my cards for 2 months I called and ask are they back " I havent gotten around to submitting them yet " "I will mail them back to you" I have his name if you would like? And I submitted again thru A Co with a local name in AZ and I marked the card when I gave it to him when I got it back ...poof mark gone I guess I have a trust issue For the record the cards werent Boggs high dollar cards I have.

Basilone · July 23, 2003 2:06AM

<< The last I checked, they aren't allowed to mark up submission prices. >>

LOL....yea...the dealers would never do that. (cough).

John

acowa · July 23, 2003 2:09AM

Boggsy,

I also missed...

<I never seen the 20.00 dollar special had I known I might have joined...When I joined 2 years ago a few months later they changed their poilicy and said you dont need to be a member, SMR after my 2nd issue was worthless how many times could I look at a mag that was 80% duplicate from the previous month. Joe's book I dont need it. Pop report no big thing.>

Thanks for cutting me some slack. In the future I will try to respond to every issue you bring up.



How does it compare with the alternatives? I agree that theres room for improvement...but what better guide is out there right now?

<Free gardes arent FREE you pay around 3.00 each(after shipping etc/>

Did you register a complaint on the US Postal Service message board asking for free delivery?

Regards,

Alan

acowa · July 23, 2003 2:17AM

Boggsy,

<The free grades are no big deal I dont need the faster service>

<Last time I attempted to submitted, the dealer had my cards for 2 months I called and ask are they back " I havent gotten around to submitting them yet>

You're losing me here...within the same thread...you've flip flopped.

All kidding aside...I will be happy to submit your cards for you...but only if you stop talking down to me all the time.

Regards,

Alan

boggs301012 · July 23, 2003 2:17AM

ALAN

WHAT EVER.

..best you got? YAWN

Anyone child could have come up with that?This attitude here sounds like a bunch of 3rd graders (my apologies to any third graders who haven't expressed how this change back to the previous policy will cause the end of the world)

Back to the old days...Membership is now required to submit.

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