New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I wouldn 't have bought it for more than $1500. But I guess there are folks who get caught in this PCGS Registry Set craze, and are willing to to pay whatever.
i'm really a big fan of that design. what i like most, just because of the novelty of it, is the way the reverse lettering changes back to brilliant from frosted when it passes through the design. i think that was done with the first modern commem, the 1982 Washington. it's a change from earlier designs where the elements rarely stretched to the rim and the lettering would be spaced around the design if it went that far.
but you're freaked about the price, understandably. since i don't collect these i can't speak to that issue. can you imagine how boring this place would be if none of us could comment on an item unless we didn't actively collect it?? WOWZER!!!!
In my opinion, it's the best modern commem. But I would never, ever pay that much for one. I've always wondered about the reliability of Teletrade's auction results, though.
First off, who here KNOWS that it sold for that amount? Just because Teletrash says so doesn't necessarily make it so. I've got a $1000 coin. I put it on the trash and my brother and I bid it up to a jillion dollars. I've just sold it to myself and now I can show my unsuspecting customers, "Look an identical specimen just sold on Teletrash for a jillion dollars. Have I got a deal for you!"
It's a rare opinion but not a rare coin Right on relayer!
First off, who here KNOWS that it sold for that amount? Gotta agree with abuell on this point.
Hey ER, you should trade in your early dollar collection for a bunch of these platinum ingots. Who wants those old, dirty coins when you can have fresh, clean PF-70 coins???
Fair market value = what a willing buyer will pay an arms length seller without compulsion. How much did your house cost 30 years ago? It's all relative.
You guys have missed your calling. It's the rare individual indeed who can grade from a scan or a picture. You could start up the "Internet Coin Grading Service". Your overhead could be very low and you could make more money than you have any idea what to do with. You can just fax back the picture with a certificate of au- thenticity attached right to the same piece of paper. For a small surcharge you could send it to them with a little more resolution and they could print the whole thing out on high grade paper.
Perhaps even better, since you apparently know what all coins are supposed to sell for, you can also print price guides with all seventy grades for all the coins up to 1964. To promote the business the 1965 and later grading guide can be given away free of charge. It will be very inexpensive since it just lists everything at face value or bullion value anyway.
No need to stop there. As long as you'll be dominating the world of coins and the net, you may as well start accumulating ALL THE COINS IN THE WORLD. If someone won't sell you can just downgrade all his coins until he sees the light. There's a whole universe to conquer. Just go for it.
To each his own but regardless of whether it's an accurately graded PCGS PR70 or not for that kind of money I'd be buying this
or this
or maybe this
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
"That's rich. So a coin is only worth face or precious metal value? I think not."
True but a coin minted a year ago using some of the best coining technology in the world is just a hunk of platinum in fancy packaging and worth not much more than the bullion its made of IMHO.
Is there any representative historical value in this coin? Has it survived through 200 years of U.S. history? Or is it a "manufactured rarity" hyped up by some dealer that makes it worth almost $10,000? What makes this coin worth 10x the price of the 13,999 other MS-68's or 69's the Mint churned out?
This isn't bashing, it's questions to stimulate some thinking and discussion so we can all understand how collectors in general determine the value (a personal issue for sure) of any particular coin.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
True but a coin minted a year ago using some of the best coining technology in the world is just a hunk of platinum in fancy packaging and worth not much more than the bullion its made of IMHO.
It's a proof coin. It was issued, and is currently worth, a premium over bullion even in typical condition.
Is there any representative historical value in this coin? Has it survived through 200 years of U.S. history?
Who cares? You do, apparently, but that's just your collecting bias, not someone else's.
Or is it a "manufactured rarity" hyped up by some dealer that makes it worth almost $10,000?
Not a dealer hyping this one.
What makes this coin worth 10x the price of the 13,999 other MS-68's or 69's the Mint churned out?
Actually a 10x isn't bad as far as the 70 grade goes.
-----
Personally, I'm not a fan of MS/PR70 coins, particularly given their history with PCGS, and I think much of what drives prices on coins like this is buying the label for registry competition.
But, I've come to realize that that is of little consequence.
Look at it another way... I knew a guy who was an amateur car racer. He spent a lot more on his hobby than most registry collectors. He did it for the thrill of competition, with no hope of recovering ANY money from his hobby.
The only difference is he didn't have to defend himself against a sneering mob of fellow hobbyists. Defending a hobby to your spouse is hurdle enough, don't you think?
1. The coin in question is a modern bullion coin. The modern term called "marketing" which can be applied to the big two grading services decision to push the "registry set" has caused x coin to sell for x amount. Two quick observations about this. One if the registry set deal goes away the price of the coin goes away. Two there is no where for the price to go but down from here. It has started at the top. Do I care what you do with your money? NO. But dont try to blow smoke up my nose and tell me that this coin deserves to sell for this price on its own merit, outside of the plastic. But HELLO! I can take an obvious gem Barber Half out of the plastic and still get the same money for it if I am a true collector or dealer. Maybe 100 years from now one could do this with that bullion coin. If so that would be then. This is now. Will this coin make the buyer money? Yes it just might. But then lots of people bought stock in internet companies at 100 dollars a share or more when they didnt even have a PE ratio. These stocks were hyped by graduates from Harvard and Yale who said that they were a bargain. And indeed they were to their bosses! I view the two different items as the exact same thing. Just another way to play on a persons ego or emotions to lighten his or her wallet.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
I do. I'm intrigued and interested in a little more than just the miniscule things that differentiate the typical PR-68 from the PR-69 and 70. But yes...it's just my personal bias .
"Not a dealer hyping this one."
Maybe not directly on this particular coin but my guess is the Registry Set hype and the dealer hyping of the Registry Set phenomenon is one of the reasons for the 10x premium. Then again, it's just my guess. I could be wrong....NOT.
"Actually a 10x isn't bad as far as the 70 grade goes."
It's commemorative coin meaning minted using some of the best minting technology in the world and given the white glove treatment. PR-70 should be the norm.
"But, I've come to realize that that is of little consequence."
Agreed since the money didn't come out of my pocket .
"thrill of competition"
I enjoy collecting but "thrill"... "competition." These guys need to get out more often .
"The only difference is he didn't have to defend himself against a sneering mob of fellow hobbyists"
No sneering on my part. We're just having a little friendly discussion
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I bought a handfull of MS ones when platinum was 324 or so. The rev is nice, the feel of the coin is nice do to the weight for it's size, but the smirk on her face turned me off to keeping a piece. So I bailed at $650 or so and never looked back. I to would of purchased something a little older with that kind of $. The one thing I noticed about those pieces is that they were perfect and very hard to scratch (hey, there bullion, and I did try;>), Think I read somewhere they needed to be struck about 7 times to bring up the detail.
<< <i> Hey ER, you should trade in your early dollar collection for a bunch of these platinum ingots. Who wants those old, dirty coins when you can have fresh, clean PF-70 coins??? >>
NumisEd, actually I do own a few of these "platinum ingots", in addition to my "old, dirty" early dollar collection.
I like the statue's form in it's entirety. I don't like the close-up of the face - it doesn't look natural at all.
The reverse is the worst. I'm assuming that giant blob is supposed to be a mountain (in the 200+ years of American coinage you'd think they'd have figured out that mountains DO NOT look good on coins), the eagle is a separate and unincorporated design. God only knows what that other thing on the right is - out in the middle of nowhere.
The price difference between PR69 and PR70 on modern coins is a joke. You can't tell the difference without magnification and there's a high probability for errors in judgment worth thousands of dollars. Consider this: If you submit a coin to PCGS hoping for a PR70 and one of the graders breaths on the coin, putting a microscopic speck of saliva on it, you just lost a hunk of cash and never knew it. It's just like a state lottery -- the winner's profits are financed by the losers.
<< <i>1. The coin in question is a modern bullion coin. The modern term called "marketing" which can be applied to the big two grading services decision to push the "registry set" has caused x coin to sell for x amount. Two quick observations about this. One if the registry set deal goes away the price of the coin goes away. Two there is no where for the price to go but down from here. It has started at the top. Do I care what you do with your money? NO. But dont try to blow smoke up my nose and tell me that this coin deserves to sell for this price on its own merit, outside of the plastic. But HELLO! I can take an obvious gem Barber Half out of the plastic and still get the same money for it if I am a true collector or dealer. Maybe 100 years from now one could do this with that bullion coin. If so that would be then. This is now. Will this coin make the buyer money? Yes it just might. But then lots of people bought stock in internet companies at 100 dollars a share or more when they didnt even have a PE ratio. These stocks were hyped by graduates from Harvard and Yale who said that they were a bargain. And indeed they were to their bosses! I view the two different items as the exact same thing. Just another way to play on a persons ego or emotions to lighten his or her wallet. >>
This thinking is not supported by the facts. Initially some of the grading services would not even accept moderns for grading. This probably was not so much modern bashing as it was an honest belief on their part that someone might lose money on some modern marvel that they didn't understand.
Try to remember this too so that it doesn't need to be continually pointed out: None of the registries accepted moderns when they started out. This probably was more a form of bashing than anything else.
Here's another one that's been pointed out many times before and might be worth remem- bering. Speculative fevers and bubbles are always characterized by large numbers of peo- ple tripping over one another to obtain the value before it's gone or the next guy gets it all and is driven by greed. ....ALWAYS. NONE of this applies to moderns. This market is driven by a handfull of collectors looking everywhere they can for slabbed and raw coins and is driven more by the desire to have fun.
As far as the registries going away you might keep in mind that it was the drive of many to have that best which created the registries, not the other way around. So long as people collect moderns, strive for the best and have computers then there will be a registry some- where.
Time flies, and leaps, and bounds, but so far it has gone in only one direction. Put me to sleep when that changes.
Is there any representative historical value in this coin? Has it survived through 200 years of U.S. history? Or is it a "manufactured rarity" hyped up by some dealer that makes it worth almost $10,000? What makes this coin worth 10x the price of the 13,999 other MS-68's or 69's the Mint churned out?
. >>
These prices aren't pulled out of a hat. Someone doesn't wake up one day and decide to push the price of some rare coin far higher. In the many months since it was made the price was unlikely to have made a steady ascent, but in all probability it did stop at some levels on its way up. This is the same sort of behaviour as any collectible which sells for more than its metallic value. Collectors who know this market will seek out such coins and have a feel for their rarity usually before they ever locate a specimen. This in depth knowledge of a market is necessary to have an item sell at substantial premiums. Is this premium justified in this particular case? You'll have to ask the people collecting it and there don't seem to be any around here. So it looks like we'll all just have to wait and see.
In the mean time I for one don't intend to insult any collectibles or collectors. If I did, coin collectors would be the last on the list of those I would attack.
<< <i>But HELLO! I can take an obvious gem Barber Half out of the plastic and still get the same money for it if I am a true collector or dealer. >>
Eagle7,
We see that quite frequently as an argument against modern coins. I'm still waiting for somebody to crack out an expensive classic from a PCGS or NGC holder and toss it up on eBay to see if it actually gets "the same money". It wouldn't, of course. It would bring substantially less than it does in the holder - just like a modern would.
Oh, and yes, I know eBay isn't the only place to sell coins. I'd guess, though, that taking that cracked out coin to the average dealer would yield the same results.
Whether the modern bashers want to admit it ot not, this is a slab driven market and it's more than a little delusional to think that just because a coin is a "classic" it won't suffer a value drop if removed from the holder.
It's commemorative coin meaning minted using some of the best minting technology in the world and given the white glove treatment. PR-70 should be the norm.
Perhaps PR70 should be the norm, particularly given that the mint sells them at a premium of hundreds of dollars over melt value, but it's not. I wonder how many people criticizing this coin have looked at a single example, particularly of this date.
I have collected one of these every year (putting together a set of 1 oz proofs) and given how much they cost I am understandably very picky about them. I purchased a total of 8 or 9 of this date, I believe. Almost all of them had obvious visible distracting flaws. After the time, hassle, and expenses mounted I finally settled on one that's nice, but still not as nice as previous years, and definitely not a PR70 candidate.
Obviously my experience is not a large enough sample to extrapolate to the 10,000 or whatever minted and declare that a PR70 is rare, but my point is that even buying myself directly from the source I had to pay a premium (in time and money) to get a nice one.
So would I have paid a premium for somebody to to find me a PR70 superb example, even a (shudder) raw PR70? You bet I would. A 10X premium? No, but that's just a matter of disposable income.
Like it or not, the differences in quality are there. If you have an opportunity to look at a few side-by-side, take it.
----
The better question for me on PR70s is whether or not PCGS can reliably discern those differences. Unfortunately PCGS has shown that it can't, at least in the past (the PR70 Ike debacle is a prime example), which is my problem with paying a big premium if you're relying on the label.
On the other hand, in the more recent past, every PCGS MS/PR70 I've seen has been a very nice coin. Not necessarily nicer than a high-end 69, but at least deserving of the grade. So if you have more money than time and want to be assured of a nice example, why not.
"This probably was not so much modern bashing as it was an honest belief on their part that someone might lose money on some modern marvel that they didn't understand."
I think you're giving the grading companies too much credit .
"None of the registries accepted moderns when they started out."
I don't know exact when they started grading moderns or commemorative coins but if that comment is related to this coin (2002) the Registry competition maybe one of the reasons for the price realized.
"driven by greed. ....ALWAYS. NONE of this applies to moderns. This market is driven by a handfull of collectors looking everywhere they can for slabbed and raw coins and is driven more by the desire to have fun."
Try telling that to the dealers selling into the Registry Set market.
"These prices aren't pulled out of a hat."
It seems the disagreement is about exactly what dynamics were involved in having this coin realizing this price. We understand that the price wasn't "pulled out of a hat."
As far as speculation regarding what the market value will be 5, 10 or 20 years and what part that speculation played in this coin realizing this price is another matter. From the standpoint of whether a PR-70 commemorative coin is, based on the differences in quality and preservation, that much better than and should be value 10x as much as a PR-68 or 69 my answer is no.
"In the mean time I for one don't intend to insult any collectibles or collectors. If I did, coin collectors would be the last on the list of those I would attack."
These comments aren't meant as an attack or intended to insult. We're just discussing our preferences. For someone to say I'd don't think that coins is worth $XXX dollars for whatever reason is just an expression of their opinion. Here's my 1839-C Quarter Eagle. Call it ugly, shake your head as to why I paid $xxx for it and tell me there is no hope I'll ever recover the money I paid for it. I don't receive that as an insult or attack. It's just a difference of opinion.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
"Perhaps PR70 should be the norm, particularly given that the mint sells them at a premium of hundreds of dollars over melt value, but it's not. I wonder how many people criticizing this coin have looked at a single example, particularly of this date."
To me the PR70 or PR69 or PR68 is a mute point (although I realize this is important to you) since the things that differentiate coins in these grades are miniscule and extremely minute.
"The better question for me on PR70s is whether or not PCGS can reliably discern those differences."
Simple answer...no. And neither can NGC, ANACS, PCI, ICG or NTC (maybe ACG ).
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
To me the PR70 or PR69 or PR68 is a mute point (although I realize this is important to you) since the things that differentiate coins in these grades are miniscule and extremely minute.
Sorry, this statement would carry more credibility if you collected modern proofs. Yes, sometimes the difference is just a few hard-to-see hairlines, but a PR68 often has obvious visible flaws, readily discernible on a proof coin's mirrored surfaces.
And of course relatively speaking (since all modern proofs are nice compared to that poor beat up thing you just posted that should have been put out of its misery in a melting pot ), those differences are far from miniscule.
By the way, my defense of this coin stops at the design, I think the reverse of the 2002 proof with the "witches broom" eagle and "spitting fish volcano" is pretty awful.
However, the obverse is very nice, and refreshing that a new design was used (unlike the silver and gold eagles). And the reverses of other years have some beautiful designs, including the 1997 debut which is shared with the uncirculated coin:
Here is the rest of the "Vistas of Liberty" reverse series (only the proof versions have changing reverses):
To address a previous comment, the proof coins are struck a varying numbers of times depending on the denomination. Platinum is very hard as far as precious metals go, and the the 1 oz is obviously the toughest to strike. I believe it is struck an amazing 9 times.
And if you like your coins WHITE, well, next to pure platinum, coin silver look like dirt. And no worries about toning with platinum, either.
"The better question for me on PR70s is whether or not PCGS can reliably discern those differences."
Simple answer...no. And neither can NGC, ANACS, PCI, ICG or NTC (maybe ACG ). >>
No. They can't. Even if we had scientific grading there would be dispute and uncertainty about the grade of some coins. This is a given and will always be a given.
But it applies to all coins. It applies to bust halfs in VG/F and to Morgans in MS-65/67. Surely all market participants are well aware of this and not one person suggested that Morgans are crap or shouldn't be collected because Dragon's coin was upgraded after it was sold. And this despite the fact that the differences between grades in this series are huge and newbies could lose a lot of money if their prize new MS-67 loses most of it's value when the grading companies are exposed and go out of business and the world is coming to and end. -right after the end of Western ciuvilization, of course.
Oh, the humanity! Think of the women and children and newbies!
"Sorry, this statement would carry more credibility if you collected modern proofs. Yes, sometimes the difference is just a few hard-to-see hairlines, but a PR68 often has obvious visible flaws, readily discernible on a proof coin's mirrored surfaces."
The validity of my statement has nothing to do with whether I personally collect modern proofs. By definition the things that differentiate coins in those lofty grades are miniscule. That's true whether you're judging it by PCGS, ANA, Photograde or Accugrade standards. Actually I have a couple of modern proofs in my collection, one I got from you .
Cladking
"But it applies to all coins."
True and that's the reason I don't limit my comments regarding 10x ~ 100x grade rarity premiums to moderns or commemoratives.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Well, if you bought a PR68 from me I'm sure it was a premium undergraded bargain-priced value-packed example, downgraded only for a few barely visible miniscule hairlines, so it wouldn't be a good comparison.
In real-life, the differences often aren't miniscule. For example, a PCGS PR68 will allow for a big milk spot in the obverse field of an otherwise flawless coin. Compare that to an accurately graded PR70 and the difference is immediately obvious to even a casual collector.
For the platinum proof that started this thread, the problems I encountered in the coins I bought were heavily hairlined planchets (no tilting under halogen light required to see), metal dust in dies resulting in cameo breaks on the devices and/or marks in the fields, and milky streaks that were apparently from planchet preparation flaws (not surface haze, I tried dipping one without success). Again, obvious imperfections, though most or all would have graded PR68.
"In real-life, the differences often aren't miniscule. For example, a PCGS PR68 will allow for a big milk spot in the obverse field of an otherwise flawless coin."
Yes, ever now and then you'll find a PR-68 or 69 with a milk spot. But the typical PR-68 or 69 is pristine and the things that separate it from a 70 are by definition miniscule.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Comments
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
<< <i>What should it have sold for? >>
I wouldn 't have bought it for more than $1500. But I guess there are folks who get caught in this PCGS Registry Set craze, and are willing to to pay whatever.
but you're freaked about the price, understandably. since i don't collect these i can't speak to that issue. can you imagine how boring this place would be if none of us could comment on an item unless we didn't actively collect it?? WOWZER!!!!
hey kranky, get back to work!!!!
al h.
It's a rare opinion but not a rare coin
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
And let's not forget that speck in the right obv. field just below "TRUST."
David
$9000+ went to the investment to participate 2004 registry award dinner (not sure is a dinner or a lunch). At least, I did not buy it.
First off, who here KNOWS that it sold for that amount? Gotta agree with abuell on this point.
Hey ER, you should trade in your early dollar collection for a bunch of these platinum ingots. Who wants those old, dirty coins when you can have fresh, clean PF-70 coins???
<< <i>$8200 for $700 worth of platinum. . .what a deal!! >>
Total agreement!
from a scan or a picture. You could start up the "Internet Coin Grading Service".
Your overhead could be very low and you could make more money than you have
any idea what to do with. You can just fax back the picture with a certificate of au-
thenticity attached right to the same piece of paper. For a small surcharge you could
send it to them with a little more resolution and they could print the whole thing out
on high grade paper.
Perhaps even better, since you apparently know what all coins are supposed to sell
for, you can also print price guides with all seventy grades for all the coins up to 1964.
To promote the business the 1965 and later grading guide can be given away free of
charge. It will be very inexpensive since it just lists everything at face value or bullion
value anyway.
No need to stop there. As long as you'll be dominating the world of coins and the net,
you may as well start accumulating ALL THE COINS IN THE WORLD. If someone won't
sell you can just downgrade all his coins until he sees the light. There's a whole universe
to conquer. Just go for it.
or this
or maybe this
<< <i>$8200 for $700 worth of platinum. . .what a deal!! >>
That's rich. So a coin is only worth face or precious metal value? I think not.
"That's rich. So a coin is only worth face or precious metal value? I think not."
True but a coin minted a year ago using some of the best coining technology in the world is just a hunk of platinum in fancy packaging and worth not much more than the bullion its made of IMHO.
Is there any representative historical value in this coin? Has it survived through 200 years of U.S. history? Or is it a "manufactured rarity" hyped up by some dealer that makes it worth almost $10,000? What makes this coin worth 10x the price of the 13,999 other MS-68's or 69's the Mint churned out?
This isn't bashing, it's questions to stimulate some thinking and discussion so we can all understand how collectors in general determine the value (a personal issue for sure) of any particular coin.
It's a proof coin. It was issued, and is currently worth, a premium over bullion even in typical condition.
Is there any representative historical value in this coin? Has it survived through 200 years of U.S. history?
Who cares? You do, apparently, but that's just your collecting bias, not someone else's.
Or is it a "manufactured rarity" hyped up by some dealer that makes it worth almost $10,000?
Not a dealer hyping this one.
What makes this coin worth 10x the price of the 13,999 other MS-68's or 69's the Mint churned out?
Actually a 10x isn't bad as far as the 70 grade goes.
-----
Personally, I'm not a fan of MS/PR70 coins, particularly given their history with PCGS, and I think much of what drives prices on coins like this is buying the label for registry competition.
But, I've come to realize that that is of little consequence.
Look at it another way... I knew a guy who was an amateur car racer. He spent a lot more on his hobby than most registry collectors. He did it for the thrill of competition, with no hope of recovering ANY money from his hobby.
The only difference is he didn't have to defend himself against a sneering mob of fellow hobbyists. Defending a hobby to your spouse is hurdle enough, don't you think?
<< <i>In my opinion, it's the best modern commem >>
nice 1, jade, very funny. shows how much you know about "modern commem's".
K S
"Who cares?"
I do. I'm intrigued and interested in a little more than just the miniscule things that differentiate the typical PR-68 from the PR-69 and 70. But yes...it's just my personal bias
"Not a dealer hyping this one."
Maybe not directly on this particular coin but my guess is the Registry Set hype and the dealer hyping of the Registry Set phenomenon is one of the reasons for the 10x premium. Then again, it's just my guess. I could be wrong....NOT.
"Actually a 10x isn't bad as far as the 70 grade goes."
It's commemorative coin meaning minted using some of the best minting technology in the world and given the white glove treatment. PR-70 should be the norm.
"But, I've come to realize that that is of little consequence."
Agreed since the money didn't come out of my pocket
"thrill of competition"
I enjoy collecting but "thrill"... "competition." These guys need to get out more often
"The only difference is he didn't have to defend himself against a sneering mob of fellow hobbyists"
No sneering on my part. We're just having a little friendly discussion
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>
Hey ER, you should trade in your early dollar collection for a bunch of these platinum ingots. Who wants those old, dirty coins when you can have fresh, clean PF-70 coins???
NumisEd, actually I do own a few of these "platinum ingots", in addition to my "old, dirty" early dollar collection.
So you don't like the Statue of Liberty?
The reverse is the worst. I'm assuming that giant blob is supposed to be a mountain (in the 200+ years of American coinage you'd think they'd have figured out that mountains DO NOT look good on coins), the eagle is a separate and unincorporated design. God only knows what that other thing on the right is - out in the middle of nowhere.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>1. The coin in question is a modern bullion coin. The modern term called "marketing" which can be applied to the big two grading services decision to push the "registry set" has caused x coin to sell for x amount. Two quick observations about this. One if the registry set deal goes away the price of the coin goes away. Two there is no where for the price to go but down from here. It has started at the top. Do I care what you do with your money? NO. But dont try to blow smoke up my nose and tell me that this coin deserves to sell for this price on its own merit, outside of the plastic. But HELLO! I can take an obvious gem Barber Half out of the plastic and still get the same money for it if I am a true collector or dealer. Maybe 100 years from now one could do this with that bullion coin. If so that would be then. This is now. Will this coin make the buyer money? Yes it just might. But then lots of people bought stock in internet companies at 100 dollars a share or more when they didnt even have a PE ratio. These stocks were hyped by graduates from Harvard and Yale who said that they were a bargain. And indeed they were to their bosses! I view the two different items as the exact same thing. Just another way to play on a persons ego or emotions to lighten his or her wallet. >>
This thinking is not supported by the facts. Initially some of the grading services would
not even accept moderns for grading. This probably was not so much modern bashing as
it was an honest belief on their part that someone might lose money on some modern
marvel that they didn't understand.
Try to remember this too so that it doesn't need to be continually pointed out: None of
the registries accepted moderns when they started out. This probably was more a form of
bashing than anything else.
Here's another one that's been pointed out many times before and might be worth remem-
bering. Speculative fevers and bubbles are always characterized by large numbers of peo-
ple tripping over one another to obtain the value before it's gone or the next guy gets it
all and is driven by greed. ....ALWAYS. NONE of this applies to moderns. This market is
driven by a handfull of collectors looking everywhere they can for slabbed and raw coins and
is driven more by the desire to have fun.
As far as the registries going away you might keep in mind that it was the drive of many to
have that best which created the registries, not the other way around. So long as people
collect moderns, strive for the best and have computers then there will be a registry some-
where.
Time flies, and leaps, and bounds, but so far it has gone in only one direction. Put me to
sleep when that changes.
<< <i>
Is there any representative historical value in this coin? Has it survived through 200 years of U.S. history? Or is it a "manufactured rarity" hyped up by some dealer that makes it worth almost $10,000? What makes this coin worth 10x the price of the 13,999 other MS-68's or 69's the Mint churned out?
. >>
These prices aren't pulled out of a hat. Someone doesn't wake up one day and decide
to push the price of some rare coin far higher. In the many months since it was made
the price was unlikely to have made a steady ascent, but in all probability it did stop at
some levels on its way up. This is the same sort of behaviour as any collectible which
sells for more than its metallic value. Collectors who know this market will seek out such
coins and have a feel for their rarity usually before they ever locate a specimen. This in
depth knowledge of a market is necessary to have an item sell at substantial premiums.
Is this premium justified in this particular case? You'll have to ask the people collecting it
and there don't seem to be any around here. So it looks like we'll all just have to wait and
see.
In the mean time I for one don't intend to insult any collectibles or collectors. If I did, coin
collectors would be the last on the list of those I would attack.
<< <i>But HELLO! I can take an obvious gem Barber Half out of the plastic and still get the same money for it if I am a true collector or dealer. >>
Eagle7,
We see that quite frequently as an argument against modern coins. I'm still waiting for somebody to crack out an expensive classic from a PCGS or NGC holder and toss it up on eBay to see if it actually gets "the same money". It wouldn't, of course. It would bring substantially less than it does in the holder - just like a modern would.
Oh, and yes, I know eBay isn't the only place to sell coins. I'd guess, though, that taking that cracked out coin to the average dealer would yield the same results.
Whether the modern bashers want to admit it ot not, this is a slab driven market and it's more than a little delusional to think that just because a coin is a "classic" it won't suffer a value drop if removed from the holder.
Russ, NCNE
Perhaps PR70 should be the norm, particularly given that the mint sells them at a premium of hundreds of dollars over melt value, but it's not. I wonder how many people criticizing this coin have looked at a single example, particularly of this date.
I have collected one of these every year (putting together a set of 1 oz proofs) and given how much they cost I am understandably very picky about them. I purchased a total of 8 or 9 of this date, I believe. Almost all of them had obvious visible distracting flaws. After the time, hassle, and expenses mounted I finally settled on one that's nice, but still not as nice as previous years, and definitely not a PR70 candidate.
Obviously my experience is not a large enough sample to extrapolate to the 10,000 or whatever minted and declare that a PR70 is rare, but my point is that even buying myself directly from the source I had to pay a premium (in time and money) to get a nice one.
So would I have paid a premium for somebody to to find me a PR70 superb example, even a (shudder) raw PR70? You bet I would. A 10X premium? No, but that's just a matter of disposable income.
Like it or not, the differences in quality are there. If you have an opportunity to look at a few side-by-side, take it.
----
The better question for me on PR70s is whether or not PCGS can reliably discern those differences. Unfortunately PCGS has shown that it can't, at least in the past (the PR70 Ike debacle is a prime example), which is my problem with paying a big premium if you're relying on the label.
On the other hand, in the more recent past, every PCGS MS/PR70 I've seen has been a very nice coin. Not necessarily nicer than a high-end 69, but at least deserving of the grade. So if you have more money than time and want to be assured of a nice example, why not.
"This probably was not so much modern bashing as it was an honest belief on their part that someone might lose money on some modern marvel that they didn't understand."
I think you're giving the grading companies too much credit
"None of the registries accepted moderns when they started out."
I don't know exact when they started grading moderns or commemorative coins but if that comment is related to this coin (2002) the Registry competition maybe one of the reasons for the price realized.
"driven by greed. ....ALWAYS. NONE of this applies to moderns. This market is driven by a handfull of collectors looking everywhere they can for slabbed and raw coins and is driven more by the desire to have fun."
Try telling that to the dealers selling into the Registry Set market.
"These prices aren't pulled out of a hat."
It seems the disagreement is about exactly what dynamics were involved in having this coin realizing this price. We understand that the price wasn't "pulled out of a hat."
As far as speculation regarding what the market value will be 5, 10 or 20 years and what part that speculation played in this coin realizing this price is another matter. From the standpoint of whether a PR-70 commemorative coin is, based on the differences in quality and preservation, that much better than and should be value 10x as much as a PR-68 or 69 my answer is no.
"In the mean time I for one don't intend to insult any collectibles or collectors. If I did, coin collectors would be the last on the list of those I would attack."
These comments aren't meant as an attack or intended to insult. We're just discussing our preferences. For someone to say I'd don't think that coins is worth $XXX dollars for whatever reason is just an expression of their opinion. Here's my 1839-C Quarter Eagle. Call it ugly, shake your head as to why I paid $xxx for it and tell me there is no hope I'll ever recover the money I paid for it. I don't receive that as an insult or attack. It's just a difference of opinion.
"Perhaps PR70 should be the norm, particularly given that the mint sells them at a premium of hundreds of dollars over melt value, but it's not. I wonder how many people criticizing this coin have looked at a single example, particularly of this date."
To me the PR70 or PR69 or PR68 is a mute point (although I realize this is important to you) since the things that differentiate coins in these grades are miniscule and extremely minute.
"The better question for me on PR70s is whether or not PCGS can reliably discern those differences."
Simple answer...no. And neither can NGC, ANACS, PCI, ICG or NTC (maybe ACG
Sorry, this statement would carry more credibility if you collected modern proofs. Yes, sometimes the difference is just a few hard-to-see hairlines, but a PR68 often has obvious visible flaws, readily discernible on a proof coin's mirrored surfaces.
And of course relatively speaking (since all modern proofs are nice compared to that poor beat up thing you just posted that should have been put out of its misery in a melting pot
However, the obverse is very nice, and refreshing that a new design was used (unlike the silver and gold eagles). And the reverses of other years have some beautiful designs, including the 1997 debut which is shared with the uncirculated coin:
Here is the rest of the "Vistas of Liberty" reverse series (only the proof versions have changing reverses):
To address a previous comment, the proof coins are struck a varying numbers of times depending on the denomination. Platinum is very hard as far as precious metals go, and the the 1 oz is obviously the toughest to strike. I believe it is struck an amazing 9 times.
And if you like your coins WHITE, well, next to pure platinum, coin silver look like dirt. And no worries about toning with platinum, either.
<< <i>
"The better question for me on PR70s is whether or not PCGS can reliably discern those differences."
Simple answer...no. And neither can NGC, ANACS, PCI, ICG or NTC (maybe ACG
No. They can't. Even if we had scientific grading there would be dispute and
uncertainty about the grade of some coins. This is a given and will always be a
given.
But it applies to all coins. It applies to bust halfs in VG/F and to Morgans in MS-65/67.
Surely all market participants are well aware of this and not one person suggested
that Morgans are crap or shouldn't be collected because Dragon's coin was upgraded
after it was sold. And this despite the fact that the differences between grades in this
series are huge and newbies could lose a lot of money if their prize new MS-67 loses
most of it's value when the grading companies are exposed and go out of business and
the world is coming to and end. -right after the end of Western ciuvilization, of course.
Oh, the humanity! Think of the women and children and newbies!
"Sorry, this statement would carry more credibility if you collected modern proofs. Yes, sometimes the difference is just a few hard-to-see hairlines, but a PR68 often has obvious visible flaws, readily discernible on a proof coin's mirrored surfaces."
The validity of my statement has nothing to do with whether I personally collect modern proofs. By definition the things that differentiate coins in those lofty grades are miniscule. That's true whether you're judging it by PCGS, ANA, Photograde or Accugrade
Cladking
"But it applies to all coins."
True and that's the reason I don't limit my comments regarding 10x ~ 100x grade rarity premiums to moderns or commemoratives.
In real-life, the differences often aren't miniscule. For example, a PCGS PR68 will allow for a big milk spot in the obverse field of an otherwise flawless coin. Compare that to an accurately graded PR70 and the difference is immediately obvious to even a casual collector.
For the platinum proof that started this thread, the problems I encountered in the coins I bought were heavily hairlined planchets (no tilting under halogen light required to see), metal dust in dies resulting in cameo breaks on the devices and/or marks in the fields, and milky streaks that were apparently from planchet preparation flaws (not surface haze, I tried dipping one without success). Again, obvious imperfections, though most or all would have graded PR68.
<< <i>
>>
Personally, I liked the first two (northeast and southeast). After that the designs were so-so. MOO
"In real-life, the differences often aren't miniscule. For example, a PCGS PR68 will allow for a big milk spot in the obverse field of an otherwise flawless coin."
Yes, ever now and then you'll find a PR-68 or 69 with a milk spot. But the typical PR-68 or 69 is pristine and the things that separate it from a 70 are by definition miniscule.