Real Life Experience with the PCGS Grade Guarantee
ColonialCoinUnion
Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭
Our story starts about 18 months ago when I bought a St. Patrick's Farthing in PCGS AU53 - 'finest grade!!!!!!!' of the few slabbed, etc., etc.
I saw the coin and thought it, well, sucked.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture of it to share but I can say that it was worn, a bit too shiny perhaps and typical of what most serious colonial collectors would call low VF and comparable to several other St. Patrick's farthings I've seen in VF35 holders.
How did it get slabbed AU53 to begin with? I have no idea other than to conclude that mistakes sometimes happen.
Anyway, I bought a better one a few months back and decided to divest the old one.
Figured auctioning it as an AU53 was likely to yield a fraction of the purchase price, selling it privately (and trying to get decent money for it) would mean that I'd have to look some prospective buyer in the face and say 'this coin is an AU' which I wasn't comfortable doing.
I really would like to personally eradicate all overgraded colonials from the market, as they do nothing but discredit PCGS grading of all colonials, and, in my opinion, are ill-will waiting to happen to someone else - and so, I decided to submit to PCGS for the grade guarantee.
I sent in the coin and after a while was called by Araceli Flores of PCGS who said that the coin had been reviewed, and it had been downgraded from AU53 to VF35 - which I thought was accurate (and astonishing).
I was given two options:
PCGS keeps the coin, I get a check for about 95% of what I paid.
PCGS returns the coin plus sends a check for the difference in retail value between a VF35 and an AU53.
Very fair in my opinion and very well handled.
Say what you want, gripe if you want about grading and slabs, etc., but PCGS stood behind this coin and really pleasantly surprised me with how they handled this.
I saw the coin and thought it, well, sucked.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture of it to share but I can say that it was worn, a bit too shiny perhaps and typical of what most serious colonial collectors would call low VF and comparable to several other St. Patrick's farthings I've seen in VF35 holders.
How did it get slabbed AU53 to begin with? I have no idea other than to conclude that mistakes sometimes happen.
Anyway, I bought a better one a few months back and decided to divest the old one.
Figured auctioning it as an AU53 was likely to yield a fraction of the purchase price, selling it privately (and trying to get decent money for it) would mean that I'd have to look some prospective buyer in the face and say 'this coin is an AU' which I wasn't comfortable doing.
I really would like to personally eradicate all overgraded colonials from the market, as they do nothing but discredit PCGS grading of all colonials, and, in my opinion, are ill-will waiting to happen to someone else - and so, I decided to submit to PCGS for the grade guarantee.
I sent in the coin and after a while was called by Araceli Flores of PCGS who said that the coin had been reviewed, and it had been downgraded from AU53 to VF35 - which I thought was accurate (and astonishing).
I was given two options:
PCGS keeps the coin, I get a check for about 95% of what I paid.
PCGS returns the coin plus sends a check for the difference in retail value between a VF35 and an AU53.
Very fair in my opinion and very well handled.
Say what you want, gripe if you want about grading and slabs, etc., but PCGS stood behind this coin and really pleasantly surprised me with how they handled this.
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Comments
I thought that was very fair, as the buyer of such a coin should have some responsibility for buying an overgraded coin to begin with. Plus I was going to sell the coin anyway and I figured that, while I might have been able to come out slightly ahead financially by taking the smaller check and the lower graded coin back and then trying to sell the VF35 coin, it was probably not worth the time and effort.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
this is the coin, which i take to all shows i go to. she's a well traveled lady, heading to Baltimore in a few weeks. the mirrors are unbelievable and absent the mark in front of the portrait the coin would be residing in another collection at a higher grade that i couldn't afford.
al h.
<< <i>I was given two options:
PCGS keeps the coin, I get a check for about 95% of what my father paid.
PCGS returns the coin plus sends a check for the difference in retail value between a VF35 and an AU53. >>
They should have paid you 100% of what your cost was plus something extra because it was their mistake, not 95%.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
It was probably a VF35 the first time around too. In which case you did well because PCGS could have contested the "not responsible for clerical errors" and given you nothing (but grief).
<< <i>but PCGS stood behind this coin and really pleasantly surprised me with how they handled this. >>
As they also did when I needed the guarantee. In point of fact, because they base the compensation on FMV and I got the coin for somewhat less, I actually made a profit on the deal and still got the coin back.
<< <i>They should have paid you 100% of what your cost was plus something extra because it was their mistake, not 95%. >>
freakycoinfreak,
Actually, no, they shouldn't. They should pay based on fair market value of the coin. There are plenty of buyers paying stupid money for coins, well beyond what they normally bring in the marketplace. PCGS has no obligation to compensate the buyer for that stupidity.
Russ, NCNE
As they also did when I needed the guarantee. In point of fact, because they base the compensation on FMV and I got the coin for somewhat less, I actually made a profit on the deal and still got the coin back.
<< They should have paid you 100% of what your cost was plus something extra because it was their mistake, not 95%. >>
freakycoinfreak,
Actually, no, they shouldn't. They should pay based on fair market value of the coin. There are plenty of buyers paying stupid money for coins, well beyond what they normally bring in the marketplace. PCGS has no obligation to compensate the buyer for that stupidity.
Russ, NCNE
hey Russ, i find it interesting that in your case you first admit that they paid you in excess of what you paid which resulted in your profit, and then you admonish freakycoin for saying that they should do just that!!
what they did in my case was request a copy of the receipt for my purchase and they based the payment on that minus the FMV of the reholdered coin.
al h.
<< <i>i find it interesting that in your case you first admit that they paid you in excess of what you paid which resulted in your profit, and then you admonish freakycoin for saying that they should do just that!! >>
Keets,
I find it interesting that your comprehension level seems to be at a low ebb. No sleep today? Take a nap and after you're refreshed, reread my post.
Russ, NCNE
When I first read the title of your thread I thought "uh oh, they screwed singapore on a grading guarantee". Let me say that I am pleased as punch that they honored their grading guarantee. Your experience has given me some hope that at least one of the plastic companies are not completely out to lunch. Sounds like PCGS is the better of the grading services and let me tell you why:
I tried the grading guarantee with 2 coins. One was with ICG and one with NGC. I took the coins to them at a show to have a face to face with them. The pin head who wears a beanie at ICG told me that "this coin looks great". It was severely overgraded. Same thing with NGC. I had a sight unseen bust half that was an NGC-62 that was really an AU-55. They said "looks accurately graded....sorry". I eventually sold those coins, but I have never ever bought another sight unseen coin again.
I am proud of PCGS for doing the right thing. That St. Patricks must have cost your father at least $9,000, but would be worth half of that if only a VF.
problem is that they are establishing a horrific standard for grading colonials, & those collectors who are clueless as to proper grading don't know that they're coins are overgraded.
i can't say it enough times: pcgs is doing a stunningly lousy job of grading colonials.
but as you said, that they would stand behind their guarantee (albeit a 50% guarantee) is kudos to them!
K S
What sort of settlement do you all think I can expect from Mr. Hagar on this one??
(Tongue firmly in cheek here)
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
$1 off of your next submission to ACG
WOWZER!!!!
you should have gotten only what you paid for the coin.
I actually made a profit on the deal
freakycoin thinks otherwise.
They should have paid you 100% of what your cost was plus something extra
your admonishment.
Actually, no, they shouldn't. but they did!
They should pay based on fair market value of the coin.
while i understand this point, it is generally used when there is no receipt to show cost or there has been a time lapse between the purchase and the guarantee resubmission. i'm not a Boy Scout, what i was saying in so many words is that you should have told PCGS what you paid for the coin and received that amount.
it's kind of like being "cash register" honest. if the clerk short-changes you, i assume you'll bring it to her attention. if she gives you too much money back, i think i can also assume that you'll say nothing. same principal in play here.
clear things up any?? each of our set of morals is different and i was just pointing that out.
al h.
<< <i>clear things up any?? each of our set of morals is different and i was just pointing that out. >>
No, Keets, that just made them muddier.
I said that compensation should be fair market value for the coin. Gee, what did PCGS compensate me? Uh, fair market value. Either you're not nearly as smart as I thought, or you're just making a nonsense assertion just for the sake of argument.
<< <i>what i was saying in so many words is that you should have told PCGS what you paid for the coin and received that amount. >>
I told PCGS exactly what I paid for the coin - repeatedly. Feel free to PM Charlie Kahler and ask him.
If somebody pays $10,000 to some telemarketing huckster for a coin that sells consistently at $5000 and uses the guarantee should PCGS compensate that buyer's stupidity at $10,000?
As for questioning my morals, you can shove that up your ass. Nobody who actually knows me ever would.
Russ, NCNE
What if someone paid, for example, $37,000 for a 1963 penny in MS70 and then discovered the coin really didn't look like an MS70, submitted it for the guarantee and it came back as MS68. The coin would then be worth (I have no idea so I'll guess) $11. Is the buyer thus entitled to the extra $36K and change?
The service PCGS provides is a GRADE guarantee, which should not be confused with some kind of stupidity insurance.
Tom
i'm not sure, but does that mean you win?
al h.
Well, as Russ has stated numerous times in the past, "There is no Santa Clause" in the coin business.
I mean, that is why Russ returned to the flea market and split his profit on the "flea market morgan" with the person who originally sold it to him, RIGHT???
Jim
<< <i>that is why Russ returned to the flea market and split his profit on the "flea market morgan" with the person who originally sold it to him, RIGHT?? >>
NoGvmnt,
Actually, not that it is any of your business, I did precisely that.
BTW, how are those 1999 silver proof sets doing? Still crying over that spilled milk?
Russ, NCNE
On a follow up to that, I asked David in the q & a about that very subject and his responce was to say that from then on they would include a written explination for those that were unsuccessful in paying for gaurantee reviews, wether or not they actually did this or not, I don't know.
Les
One more thing while I'm thinking about it, if the proper responce for a successful gaurantee submission is to pay fair market value between 1 grade and another, then why would pcgs ask to see your original receipt of how much you paid for the coin which isn't necessarily current fair market value ?
al h.
No,puss, but funny how you complained so much about that thread to Carol, yet, here you are bringing it up.
FYI, I returned the 2 opened sets to Oldguy for a refund of the purchase price, destroyed the other 2 sets, which both tonekiller and jbsteven can verify as I presented evidence of to both of them at the St. Louis show, and I sold the remaining sets on Ebay with a liberal return policy. Altogether, I broke even.
As for you "CLAIMING" t have split the profit from that "flea market morgan" with the person who originally sold it to you: BUUUWWWAAAAAAAAHAAHAAAHaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
Sincerely, JIm
<< <i>No,puss, but funny how you complained so much about that thread to Carol, yet, here you are bringing it up. >>
NoGvmnt,
I didn't complain to Carol about the thread. I don't complain to Carol about threads at all. It was probably one of the other several hundred members that watched you make a complete and utter buffoon out of yourself.
Russ, NCNE
BTW, Mr. slab caddy (with a "tm"), how many of your slab caddy (with a "tm") customers now have another dust collector laying on their fridge since they figured out it is easier and more secure to carry their slabs in their posket rather than having an obtrusive pouch dangling from their belt loop where anyone could easily snatch it along with their prized, valuable slabs?
Sincerely, Jim