Question about PCGS-8 1901-S quarter

jadecoin · July 16, 2003 4:19AM

I have a client for a VG 1901-S quarter. He would like a raw coin so that it can be put in an album. There is one available in the Scotsman auction, BUT, I have examined it in person. The "Liberty" is completely absent, not a hint of it. My question: is this coin TRULY VG-8 in your opinion? Thanks for your input.

1901-S Quarter

nwcs · July 16, 2003 4:26AM

No, a G or G-6 in my opinion. Although the rim is very nice for a G.

Spudmasher · July 16, 2003 4:28AM

I guess you could make a case for it being VG, sans any letters showing in LIBERTY. I have been collecting coins for over 50 years, and it is amazing how much slippage there has been in the art of grading these KEY coins of yesteryear. Back then a GD6!

SmallTownCoins · July 16, 2003 4:41AM

The existing $3,900.00 bid seems to think it's a VG.....
I would have to agree... It's far too nice of a coin to be a G.. IMHO....

FC57Coins · July 16, 2003 4:47AM

According to PCGS:

VG8/10 specimens usually have a few letters, or partial letters, of Liberty still evident. Only parts of the top leaves of the wreath are still visible and there is little or no separation between the face and neck. Only part of the ear is still visible. An outlined eagle with only slight detail is present with the neck, tail, and shield worn quite flat.

Worn to G4/6 most Barber quarters have only part of the eye socket and ear, though Miss Liberty is still outlined. Rims may be worn through the dentrilsand slightly into the fields, with wear possibly into a few of the reverse letters. The eagle is well-outlined, but only slight detail remains around the shield.

Given those descriptions:

For VG8/10

usually have a few letters, or partial letters, of Liberty still evident - none there
Only parts of the top leaves of the wreath are still visible - visible
there is little or no separation between the face and neck - some separation is evident
The eagle is well-outlined, but only slight detail remains around the shield - you can still see the line across the top half of the shield

I would say that in order for this to be a "deal" therefore, it should be priced as a premium G6 - to go VG8 in my mind would be stretching the requirements more than I'd be comfortable with.

Frank

braddick · July 16, 2003 4:54AM

Nice, full rims. I know what you mean about the lettering in Liberty, but sure looks solid VG08 to me.

NumisEd · July 16, 2003 4:59AM

I agree with Frank.....well stated.

This coin is better than a G-4, but it does not quite hit VG-8...........even by PCGS' very own grading standards. They should have put it into a G-6 holder. The truth is that this coin is worth a premium as a Good condition 01-S. What really perplexes me is that PCGS is suppose to be ultra conservative, yet they let this coin slide through.

Is this a coin that would qualify for the grading guarantee? I mean, if I bought this coin for VG money, but then could not sell it because it had absolutly no trace of LIBERTY, isn't that proof of damages??? I could show them the text right out of their grading standards book. I would then ask homerunhall to tell me which 3 letters of LIBERTY his graders identified when they slabbed this coin.

kamehameha00 · July 16, 2003 5:33AM

in my opinion its defintly not vg-8 but a nice g-6

OldUncleUhUh · July 16, 2003 5:38AM

It sure comes close to VG-8; a case can be made for a partial L and TY, at least to my tired old eyes. The rims are as full as you would want on a VG coin, IMHO it's a Good-6/7 (always stretching those grading parameters, aren't we

). It's probably not so far out of line in today's bull market to call it VG-8, but us old timers know better! Still, it is choice for the grade, whatever it actually is!

jdimmick · July 16, 2003 8:37AM

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Coinosaurus · July 16, 2003 11:30AM

This is a super choice G6. It IS worth VG8 money. Call it whatever grading number you like, I will not argue. I would much rather have the nicest G6 coin there is than to have a crappy looking VG8, for the same money.

PCGS did not "let this one slip through" - it's called MARKET grading for a reason

291fifth · July 16, 2003 11:33AM

Coin is a choice G6. I doesn't make VG8.

coinkat · July 16, 2003 11:35AM

excellent comments... I tend to agree with FC57Coins on this one.

clw54 · July 16, 2003 11:35AM

Maybe it was submitted and resubmitted until the slab had the desired number.

braddick · July 16, 2003 12:03PM

I'm glad you guys aren't Graders! GD04? GD06? There's a lot of meat on that coin. Full denticles. chin and head separation. Almost Fine detail on the Eagle.

I think this one in a GD04 holder would be UNDERgraded yet FN12 over. VG08 seems juuuuuusssstttt right.

NumisEd · July 16, 2003 3:21PM

PCGS did not "let this one slip through" - it's called MARKET grading for a reason

What in the friggin' he!! are you talkin' bout Willis?? What in the he!! is "MARKET" grading? I did not see the word "MARKET" anywhere in the PCGS grading guide. If I had to apply a definition to the phrase "market grading", I would say this:

MARKET GRADED
Phrase applied to a coin that is submitted to a major grading service by a major dealer who submits thousands of coins per month to the same slabbing company. Key date coins submitted by such a good customer will often result in a coin being overgraded by the grading service as a way of saying "thanks for your business".

BigAl · July 16, 2003 4:16PM

idiot newbie's 2 cents:

Since I don't know (or pretend to know) how to grade these suckers, I'll refer to my trusty ANA grading standards book circa 1977:

VG8: OBV-entire head weak, and most details in the face worn smooth. Three letters in LIBERTY are clear. Rim is complete. REV-Eagle shows only a small amount of detail. Arrows and leaves are flat. Most of the shield is very weak. Part of the eye is visible.

If you asked my unprofessional opinion in '77, I'd be inclined to say that 8 is a John Holmes streeeetch (LIBERTY completely absent--from your personal observation, most of shield nonexistent--not "very weak")...

This coin begs the question of just how much subjectivity the market is willing to bear in respect to grading (emphasizing key dates).....

If the market is willing to spent 8 money for a 6 coin, then PRICE should be the adjusted factor, not GRADE!

To clearly state my (unprofessional) opinion: No such thing as MARKET GRADING; only MARKET PRICES.

dorkkarl · July 16, 2003 7:37PM

let's be blunt/honest: THE PCGS GRADE FLAT-OUT SUCKS

no way in he11 that coin is vg, not now, not ever. amazing how blinded some of you people are by the fricking plastic slab!!! do you just think pcgs is incapable of screwing up???

i don't give a rat's rear-end how choice you think it is, THAT COIN IS NOT VG, END OF STORY. so some idiot newbie is going to get screwed & pay way too much for it.

gee, isn't that exactly what ACG gets nailed for?

K S

moosesr · July 16, 2003 10:15PM

Here is an example of a 1901-S quarter graded G6 by PCGS.

Link

Newkid · July 17, 2003 12:02AM

I would have to go with coinosaurs on this one.You have Good Barbers and then
there are FULL RIM Barbers.Even though the coin doesn`t merit enough to technically
grade a VG, A full rim perfect original key date Barber will bring VG money everytime.

jadecoin · July 17, 2003 12:22AM

Guys! I just wanted to reiterate. I examined the PCGS coin in-hand under a glass, and there is no trace of any three letters whatsoever! This is what has me concerned. My client dearly wants a 1901-S, and I have been looking for nearly a year, but this one concerns me.

I will say that it is definitely an original coin, though it is not particularly choice, even for "Good". I really thought it was just a plain, old solid "G-4". In fact, if you compare it to the coin photographed in the Official ANA Guide, the PCGS coin is a virtual twin to the ANA G-4.

Thanks for the input. Seems like there are viewpoints on both sides of the grade.

Newkid · July 17, 2003 12:29AM

This is the type coin that you wouldn`t be able to find if you went to every major coin show in the country for a whole year. Worth VG money

BASEagle · July 17, 2003 12:35AM

<< <i>My question: is this coin TRULY VG-8 in your opinion? >>

Nope. Gotta have 3 letters in LIBERTY to be TRULY VG-8.

Mike

kingmatt · July 17, 2003 1:48AM

I've experienced this same situation with Barber dimes. Several dealers in my area will call a G-4 a VG even though there are no letters visible. Are the grading rules changing for Barber coinage? Would the rules ever change? Is there a concensus of opinion?

NumisEd · July 17, 2003 4:59AM

This is the type coin that you wouldn`t be able to find if you went to every major coin show in the country for a whole year. Worth VG money

newkid, you are missing the point. I think that most of us agree that the 01-S in question is worth a premium because of the rims, reverse detail, etc., but it is NOT a technical VG-8. So why, may I ask, did PCGS.....the king of all plastic peddlers (according to some of you guys).....the most conservative slabbing company (according to some of you guys).......put this G-4 coin in a VG-8 slab???? Maybe because it was a favor to a respected client? Hmmm...we may never know.

One thing that I do know is that coin is overgraded and someone is going to get screwed. I can see it now: the person who wins the coin will try to sell it next year and every dealer will say "I don't care what the slab says, you have to have 3 letters in LIBERTY to be a VG".

NumisEd · July 17, 2003 5:02AM

Why didn't PCGS just put the proper grade of G-6 on the slab? We all agree that anyone who knows coins would probably pay VG money for that exampe because it is very nice for the grade. But....let the bidder decide what the coin is worth. Do people really need to see PCGS's opinion in order to buy a coin? Can't people see that this technical G-6 coin is nicer than some technical VG-8 coins and, therefore, worth a premium?

dorkkarl · July 17, 2003 5:06AM

numised is 762% correct

K S

kamehameha00 · July 17, 2003 5:23AM

i agree with you 100% numisEd

ARCO · July 17, 2003 8:03AM

Based on the laurel wreath detail and the absence of any letters of LIBERTY the coin grades G6 in my opinion. It does have strong rims, but most VG8's for that date do too. LIBERTY is such a strong market determinant for the grade and price, that I personally would not pay VG money for anything less.

Tyler

jadecoin · July 18, 2003 1:49AM

We are going to pass on the coin. Thank you for all the very valuable input!

Question about PCGS-8 1901-S quarter

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