Interesting response by David Hall regarding the PCGS C*NT cent in the Q&A forum

agentjim007 · July 10, 2003 2:18AM

I didn't see this one when it was in for grading, but my guess is that the off-center is so prominent that we decided to holder it and note the damage.
Has anyone ever seen a PCGS holder with "damage" noted on holder? Thats net grading. Why do I get boddy bags?
Didn't Fred Weinberg say that this cent should have never been slabbed? The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, I guess.

Russ · July 10, 2003 2:20AM

Yeah, I saw that. First thing I thought was that maybe with some questions he should check with staff before answering.

Russ, NCNE

cherrypickincoin · July 10, 2003 2:22AM

David Hall is a busy man with with a big company(ies) under his belt. We got the answer from Fred, it's surprising David even has the time to post here once in awhile.

Russ · July 10, 2003 2:30AM

cherrypickincoin,

I completely agree with that. And, I appreciate the fact that he does take time out from a busy schedule to field inquiries in the Q&A forum.

However, I think if he is going to take the time to answer questions, he should strive for accuracy in those responses. This is not the first time he's disseminated incorrect information.

Russ, NCNE

dragon · July 10, 2003 2:32AM

It is well known that PCGS will holder coins with damage or even lightly cleaned or altered coins if they feel the coin warrants it, or if the coin is rare or old enough. There are many examples of rare coins being holdered by PCGS that have been cleaned or altered or are environmentally damaged. Look at the famous Dexter 1804 dollar, it had a 'D' punched right into the coin (Dexter counterstamped his coins with a 'D') and was holdered, look at many pre 1830 gold coins that were cleaned or wiped that are in PCGS holders, look at all the lightly corroded early large cents in holders, etc.

It has even been rumored that many of the famous and very EXPENSIVE proof gold coins from the Trompetor(sp?) collection that were wiped or lightly cleaned and got holdered. It's a judgement call by PCGS as to whether they feel the coin still warrants being holdered.

dragon

Russ · July 10, 2003 2:35AM

Dragon,

The problem with this coin is not that it was holdered and graded. It was mistakenly holdered using the bodybag label. Somebody in the sealing room screwed up.

Russ, NCNE

dragon · July 10, 2003 2:37AM

oh...

Steve27 · July 10, 2003 2:43AM

While I agree with all the statements (e.g. this coin was inadvertantly slabbed, PCGS will slab some lightly cleaned and/or damaged coins), I wonder why BB coins aren't slabbed. They're not net-graded this way, but they are authenticated.

agentjim007 · July 10, 2003 2:45AM

David Hall is a busy man with with a big company(ies) under his belt. We got the answer from Fred, it's surprising David even has the time to post here once in awhile.

IT"S HIS JOB. I'm busy also, i can't do half a job because of that.

PCGS has slabbed alot of problem coins but doesn't put the problem on the holder.

Placid · July 10, 2003 2:49AM

"but my guess is" I think tells you he was just guessing and not making a offical statement

coinguy1 · July 10, 2003 3:00AM

<< It has even been rumored that many of the famous and very EXPENSIVE proof gold coins from the Trompetor(sp?) collection that were wiped or lightly cleaned and got holdered >>

Dragon, I viewed many of the Trompeter Proof Gold Coins when I was still grading at NGC.

I have been told by more than one reliable source that Mr. Trompeter's coins had Freon applied to the surfaces, to better preserve them. While I don't know if that is fact, the coins do have a very distinctive appearance, even if they aren't cold to the touch.

dorkkarl · July 10, 2003 3:09AM

EVERY coin w/ a numismatic should be slabed - PERIOD. i realize that's not at issue here, but just wanted to get that in.

pcgs slabs definitely DO exist w/ damage noted & a net-grade given (similar to anacs policy). i've seen them.

K S

Russ · July 10, 2003 3:13AM

<< EVERY coin w/ a numismatic should be slabed - PERIOD. >>

Now Karl says all coins should be slabbed. Damn, I'm adding that quote to my sig.

Russ, NCNE

dragon · July 10, 2003 3:40AM

coinguy1,

Really?? Hmmmm.....interesting. I've heard all kinds of rumors regarding the Trompetor proof gold coins, everything from them being lightly wiped, to some of them having hairlines lasered away, but I've never heard the freon thing, and I don't really see what benefits freon would do to a proof coin except make it very cold for a short time. I've only seen a couple of his coins in person at major shows in the past, and didn't look at them closely.

dragon

Askari · July 10, 2003 4:57AM

<< EVERY coin w/ a numismatic should be slabed - PERIOD. i realize that's not at issue here, but just wanted to get that in. >>

Well, if you slabbed every coin submitted with its numismatic, that should clean up the hobby pretty quick. Just imagine the size of the slabs required, though ... and Registry Sets? ... never mind.

supercoin · July 10, 2003 5:02AM

Askari, took me a while, but

.

michael · July 10, 2003 5:05AM

wow agent jim this is one of the best threads i haver seen on here

it is a neat coin and off center but the bad word on the back?? i am surpriced that even with tooling and damage even if it was not noticeable then would slab this ???

and then they slabbed it with thjis dirty word

well i guess evereyone makes mistakes and it just slipped by that day things happen all the time

i was wondering where can i contact the seller of this coin does he have an e mail?

or a phone number someone could look up for me? THANKS!! as i am not on ebay

sincerely michael

michael · July 10, 2003 5:08AM

on these mr. trumpet proof gold coins collection they do ceretianly have a distinctive look to them! from the dipping they all got in an unusual substance!! yes yes yes LOL

but my understanding from a first person reliable sourse told me that mr. trumpet used to dip all the proof gold coinsd he got in

and the spelling is not correct

tolueine

sincerely michael

michael · July 10, 2003 5:09AM

this is a monster great thread

i give it 5 stars and a bag of chips

cosmicdebris · July 10, 2003 5:59AM

When Dave replied to the Q&A do you think he really saw what word was spelled out on the back of that coin?

mnmcoin · July 10, 2003 6:42AM

<< Dragon,

The problem with this coin is not that it was holdered and graded. It was mistakenly holdered using the bodybag label. Somebody in the sealing room screwed up.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, how do you know that the label used is a bodybag label, it looks normal to me.

morris <><

Russ · July 10, 2003 6:47AM

<< Russ, how do you know that the label used is a bodybag label, it looks normal to me. >>

Morris,

Because the original submitter of the coin stated such. Bodybag labels look just like inserts. They just don't have grades on them.

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion · July 10, 2003 10:12AM

I've seen one other PCGS coin slabbed as Damage or Tooling and given no grade - it was a Washington Born Virginia Cent (very rare colonial) and I figured it was slabbed because it was so rare.

As for the current coin under discussion with its 'interesting' rewording, I'm guessing the guys in the grading room at PCGS had a good laugh about it and figured what the heck -

RGL · July 10, 2003 12:41PM

As the not-so-proud owner of a tooled bodybag, that one kind of caught my eye too ...

michael · July 10, 2003 2:32PM

oh i understand now

someone in the end coin incapulsation room slabbed a coin with a bodybag insert now i gets it

the ttumpet proof gold coins again were dipped in toluene (not the correct spelling) to achieve a look for the coins and also the owner wanted to clean them and have them preserved as best as he thought they would be at the time in his opinion and of course this should have not been done but such was the owners desires at the time as he acted apon what he thuoght was the right thing to do at the time
which gives all these gold coins a rather unnatural looking appearance

many were slabbed at one service then went to another service for ultimately higher grades on most of the coins

sincerely michael

bushmaster8 · July 11, 2003 2:26AM

I think David Hall should give more thought to many of the answers in the QA forum. Recently he told someone to remove PVC reside with Jeweluster. Wrong answer! Solvent (acetone or chloro-fluorocarbons) is the preferred method for removing the green slime! Thiourea dip is a poor PVC remover.

Conder101 · July 11, 2003 4:57AM

<< << Russ, how do you know that the label used is a bodybag label, it looks normal to me. >>

Morris,

Because the original submitter of the coin stated such. Bodybag labels look just like inserts. They just don't have grades on them.
>>

Also if you look at the serial number, the two digit number after the decimal point is used to indicate the grade up through 70. I believe numbers above 70 are code numbers used internally by PCGS to indicate the reason why a coin is being body bagged.

wayneherndon · July 11, 2003 5:48AM

So are these in PCGS holders or not?

WH

Russ · July 11, 2003 5:55AM

Wayne,

That's an interesting question:

<< ~ 1913-D Type I. MS-60. With PCGS label noting "altered surface" ~ 1914-D Net AU-55; sharpness of MS-60, cleaned. With PCGS label noting "cleaned or whizzed." (Total: 2 pieces) >>

If you look at the description, they don't actually say the grade was assigned by PCGS. The grades they're using may just be their own assessment. Too bad they didn't include images.

Russ, NCNE

wayneherndon · July 11, 2003 5:58AM

When I first saw it I thought it might be some old net graded/problem PCGS slabs. But on rereading, I think it is likely bodybag labels that they're including with the coins. But, it could be either or even something else. They could have been a bit clearer.

WH

Russ · July 11, 2003 6:13AM

<< I believe numbers above 70 are code numbers used internally by PCGS to indicate the reason why a coin is being body bagged. >>

Conder,

That makes sense. Looking at the image of the coin which is the topic of this thread, it has a 98.

Russ, NCNE

Conder101 · July 11, 2003 6:35AM

My guess on the lot that Wayne linked is that they are not in slabs but are bodybagged. If they were in slabs then I think the description would read "in PCGS holder, label notes 'altered surfaces'. " Instead it says "with PCGS label noting" (italics mine)

Interesting response by David Hall regarding the PCGS C*NT cent in the Q&A forum

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Interesting response by David Hall regarding the PCGS C*NT cent in the Q&amp;A forum

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Interesting response by David Hall regarding the PCGS C*NT cent in the Q&A forum