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Today's a sad day for US numismatics
FrattLaw
Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
Not only is it the anniversary of the birth of the United States, it is also the 177th anniversary of the death of Thomas Jefferson, on July 4, 1826. If you aren't aware Thomas Jefferson was instumental in establishing the US Mint and coinage in the United States when we were still a struggling country. 
It's also the anniversary of the death of John Adams, 2nd President and the politically enemy of Thomas Jefferson.
Strange that two of the original signers of the Consitution and Declaration of Independence died hours apart on the same day, the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Little 4th of July trivia, mix in with a little numismatic history.
Happy 4th of July!
Michael
It's also the anniversary of the death of John Adams, 2nd President and the politically enemy of Thomas Jefferson.
Strange that two of the original signers of the Consitution and Declaration of Independence died hours apart on the same day, the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Little 4th of July trivia, mix in with a little numismatic history.
Happy 4th of July!
Michael
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Just my two Lincolns.
Novice collector, occasionally selling some coins on eBay. Click HERE to see all my auctions.
Plan for Establishing Uniformity in the Coinage, Weights, and Measures of the United States
I watched the special on the US Mint last night and what caught me was that fact that a 100 yr old device is still used today to transfer images from the sculpted original to create a masterhub. Imagine, in today's computer age, a machine developed 100 yrs ago still does a better job then anything we can come up with today.
Michael
Happy 4th of July also, What makes this a sad day is that -The Federalist Papers- are not requiered reading in high school history. Most students today don't even know what they are.
Jefferson and Adams, it seems, were political rivals and sought to each carry their vision of the country to fruition. they did that at the expense of alienating themselves from each other, but the country as a whole benefited. they are each deserving of recognition and it would be nice for some type of coinage to pay homage to Adams.
al h.
Adams for the Dollar - whose with me on this one!
By the way -- you have to read David McCullough's bio on John Adams. It won a pulitzer and is just an amazing account of this man's life!
Michael
<< <i>Close to the end, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams publicly professed mutual admiration for each other. They cheered each other on to live long and prosper. They both realized that politics got in the way of what might had been a great friendship, although thaty would have been difficult since they were so different from each other, personality wise. >>
In actuality - John Adams started corresponding with Jefferson again in about 1810, and that started not only the reparation of their friendship, but also one of the richest correspondences in literary history - at the height of their correspondence they were sharing over 50 letters a year between them. Their last letter was dated April 1826.
Thomas Jefferson had the absolute GALL and audacity to literally remove text from the inerrant Holy Bible; chapters and verses which he believed were not "authentic" in his judgment. This is known as the "jefferson bible" and is more a testament to supreme arrogance and foolishness rather than wisdom.
While Jefferson is lauded for the "declaration of independence," he was but one of many who participated in the physical drafting of a document. To credit Jefferson with the grand thinking of the declaration is like crediting ones secretary for drafting a letter that was dictated to her. What people are REALLY praising is the SPIRIT of the declaration itself and the quest for freedom from tyranny that was behind it. Jefferson was hardly the author of THAT.
In the end, the greatest in America are often the ones who are largely unknown; like the typical farmer, soldier, trucker, teacher, etc, who each day toil to make America the GREATEST nation that she is. I celebrate THEM as great Americans on the 4th of July. Happy 4th of July (even though it's already the 5th).
Unfortunately, we are all products of our time! History and higher authority are our judges. Mores and morality are learned traits. Slavery was an inherited and natural trait for many of these people and was no more wrong for them than us polluting the earth and damaging earth Digging precious metals to make coins
Jefferson wasn't perfect, but most Americans during that time either accepted slavery or owned slaves themselves. Unfortunately many of our own relatives.
KZ... Great info on weights & measurements. It took me 30 min. to read and probably two days to understand.
adrian
<< <i>Matteproof,
Unfortunately, we are all products of our time! History and higher authority are our judges. >>
Hi AbesNeighbor. Thank you for your comments. I agree that "we are all products of our time! History and higher authority are our judges." I was thinking more about Jefferson's hypocrisy concerning slavery in addition to the deed of his having them. It's one thing to do, and yet another to do and tell others not to. Actually, I guess I don't dislike Jefferson too much because I have a couple of those 1942P Type 2 proofs in my collection.
Please seperate the quality of the System from the individual and personal lives of those who brought it to you. In other words, it's their System of Government they set forth for us all to be guided by -- not their personal political, sex, religious, or moral codes. Also, please understand that Slavery was a problem the Founders recognized -- in fact, Benjamin Franklin started the first Anti-Slavery Organization in America. The ending of slavery started with the Founding Fathers -- they were revolutionary in that respect as well. Please keep in mind that they were trying to form a new Nation, not rid society of its ills. Think of it this way: you and I want to start a new National Coin Club because we feel the coins we collect are being abused, disrespected, melted, and attacked, and we want to create a new standard in how coins are treated. You and I create the Coin Constitution we are to be guided by. Time is running out, our coins are in trouble. We make a deal to start this club by the skin of our teeth, just barely. It is viewed later on as the best System for coin standards ever, and changed the course of coin collecting and preservation for the better.
Is it fair to judge our System on how you and/or I personally struggled with/handled some of those coins? More specific to your point -- is it fair to criticize us for not ridding the Coin World of its problems? Were we responsible for getting rid of bad plastics, rogue auction sites, and getting Government agencies to stop melting coins? Or was it good enough that we created a System based upon sound principles of Coin Respect -- one that was open and wise enough to take into account dealing with current, future, and unforseen assualts on our coins?
I submit to you, matteproof, that the Founders simply could not deal with the issue of Slavery and expect to get the Constitution ratified. It would be like you and I creating a System and being expected to get rid of cars, illegal immigrants, or guns. Slaves, unfortunately, were not much more than a tool back then. However, the Founders were wise and open enough to recognize that conflict, and set forth in motion a System that they knew would be able to deal with that issue at a later point. The start of ending slavery started with our Founding Fathers, believe it or not. It was debated at the time and widely understood to be so divisive, it can't be dealt with or "fixed" in society if forming America was going to be given a real chance.
People tend to belittle the work they did and the quality of their System because they pesonally often lacked the highest moral ground at the time. If you create a great computer program based on freedom, it wouldn't be fair to criticize that program because you limited the freedom of your friend, son, etc. when using it.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Jefferson is held in a near trance like awe among some who set him up as being nearly without peer. My sense is that Jefferson was just a typical stereotype of the exceedingly liberal, high-minded, enlightenment era from which he came. To me, he was just one of that crowd - and a man totally obsessed with the French Revolution. Perhaps France - even more than America - served to shape his "intellectual" concept of being the "elitists rebel." IF Jefferson was a renegade, he was one with a huge trust fund.
Being a "well born" man and the son of a fantastically wealthy father, Jefferson was "well educated" and had every conceivable privilege imaginable. He inherited massive tracts of land from his wealthy family yet managed to find himself in serious debt years later. Though he was terribly bright, he was not much at money management (a common plague among the trust fund crowd it seems).
You said; "... is it fair to criticize us for not ridding the Coin World of its problems? " Yes, IF we never cleaned a coin, ATed a coin, or knowingly sold a scratched bent coin as being "all there." However, we would be supreme hypocrites IF we tried to rid the coin community of it's problems while simultaneously practicing those very problems that we feign getting rid of.
You said; " I submit to you, matteproof, that the Founders simply could not deal with the issue of Slavery and expect to get the Constitution ratified." Fair enough. This is probably true. However, if so, it would only mean that the ratification of the Constitution was built upon a false premise (at least a partially false premise). While the founders rightly condemned the prince of England as "marked by every act which may define a tyrant," they themselves were performing their own tyranny back home with slavery. While I understand that the "times were different" back then, Jefferson professed to "know better." He should be held to his own standard. Accordingly, his continuation with his own personal slaves is unusual to say the least.
You said; " People tend to belittle the work they did and the quality of their System because they personally often lacked the highest moral ground at the time." With respect to Jefferson, I don't think that he is belittled very much at all. I think he is PRAISED far more than criticized. I'm in the minority on this one (just look at the comments on this thread to gain an idea of what most people feel about Jefferson).
Last thoughts; I can discount most of Jefferson's humanness (all have sinned - especially me). However, Jefferson's attempt to "rewrite" the Bible (i.e. the jefferson bible) is so egregious, so outrageous, so arrogant, that it makes overlooking his other frailties seem trivial. By "editing" the inerrant Bible, Jefferson essentially was saying that he knew MORE than the Bible itself.
I respect - and even admire - Jefferson's professed idea that "religionists" tainted sound doctrine. However, challenging the utterly fallible religionists and editing the inerrant Holy Bible are two entirely different things. If Jefferson had restricted himself to critiquing the religionists that he so hated (other than those that endorsed his folly) he would be on fair ground. Unfortunately, the religionists were just "small fry" to Jefferson. He wanted to go after the BIGGEST game - the Bible itself; to his ultimate shame. Thank you again for your thoughts FoundingFather. I appreciate it much. I promise, I won't sell my Jefferson nickels any time soon.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Most Catholics don't even realize Jesus Christ had numerous bothers and sisters.
So Jefferson's attempt to re-edit the bible really doesn't seem all that arrogant in light of those facts. He wasn't the first, and he won't be the last.
Michael
siliconvalleycoins.com
Your "Fanfare for the Common Man" is a nice tribute to the vital importance of ordinary Americans. However, it is possible to acknowledge that there were and are great men without diminishing the stature of each and every person. Thomas Jefferson was, in my estimation, a truly great man in a multitude of respects.
That having been said, I wish the Treasury or the Congress would take him and all the other "deadheads" off our coinage, and restore the ideal of Liberty in all her majesty. Jefferson himself would surely have echoed this sentiment.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
He may not have been the looker, though he was quite popular with the ladies even into his golden years,
hes genius shines like a beacon on our nation like that of no other in his time as well as our own.
His story is one of true wonderment and a story EVERY American should learn.
As a side note to the people with the slavery comments, remember that
Jefferson did put an anti-slavery paragraph in the Declaration of Independence
(removed during discussion), put forth an ammendment to ban further slavery
in the US (defeated), and suceeded in making the foreign slave trade illegal
during his presidential administration. As far as his personnal slave holdings
went, he financially couldn't let them go. Wrong of him? Yes, but who among
us doesn't have a few failings? Let's not forget all of the great contributions
he made to the country, let alone our hobby, over one issue that fortunately ended
over 140 years ago.
Oh, by the way matteproof, maybe he ended up $100,000 in debt when he died,
but at least he reduced the federal debt by 1/3 during his term, and his farm fell
into disrepair while he was busy in public service. Let's see you do better.
Nathan Hale.
lol ,my Dad always mis-took his famous line for that of Patrick Henrys` who said ofcourse ` Give me
Liberty, or give me death.` hehe Dad said `yup he said that,,,,,,and then they hung him`
LOL!!!!!
No no!!!!
It was Nathan Hale that said: `I regret that I have but one life to give for my country`......then they ( the British) shot
him then hung him I believe is how it went.
Reading his story, Hale just about takes on an almost religious icon status in my opinion.
You said; " There are huge amounts of passages that different Popes, Cardinals & the Roman Catholic church itself edited out through-out the centuries,..." Lists from ancient sources, ranging from the second century B.C. to the fifth century A.D, attest to the modern 39 Old Testament books. The canon of the New Testament is likewise attested by the early Christian community. The Key factors in recognizing these books was their antiquity, and apostolic authorship. When our modern English translations are held up against the original Hebrew & Greek, they are amazingly and substantially accurate to the originals! The NT was completed within the span of a hundred years. Jefferson and the others came WAY later. Thousands of portions of NT manuscripts, copied by hand before the invention of printing, are still in existence today! Thomas Jefferson (and others) attempted to negate what was already confirmed thousands of years earlier. THAT is arrogance.
You said; "...especially those not particularly complimentary to Jesus Christ." The original text (and our modern translations) do not cast Jesus Christ in a non-complimentary light at all. Quite the opposite. Those who have tried to remove original inspired text have NOT done so in an attempt to hide uncomplimentary comments about Jesus, but rather to protect their own wrongly held doctrines that were at variance with the original text. The Jefferson bible is a classic example of this. Jefferson removed the original text that HE found offensive to HIS doctrine, just like a Coin Doctor removes natural toning that they find offensive on their coins. Like the Bible, the coins are ONLY original without ANYTHING removed. Once something is removed, it is no longer ORIGINAL and is tainted. Incidentally, Jefferson had nothing but PRAISE for Jesus Christ specifically. It was the doctrines of the religionists, which did not align with his, that prompted his outrageous hatchet job of the Bible. Rather than debate the religionists, he chose to edit his best EVIDENCE that would have defeated the religionists for him.
You said; " Most Catholics don't even realize Jesus Christ had numerous bothers and sisters." You may be right about this. However, I can tell you that I (and others) are well aware that HE did have brothers and sisters. How do I know? Because the original text of the Bible tells me so (Mark 6: 3). And that is exactly the problem with Jefferson's alteration of the Bible. IF Jefferson had removed Mark 6: 3 from his edited so-called Jefferson Bible, then I would NEVER KNOW that Jesus had brothers and sisters since Mark 6: 3 would have been deleted. Differences in arriving at any truth can only be debated by reviewing ALL of the evidence. That evidence must ALWAYS be untampered otherwise it is not worthy evidence. Jefferson tampered with that evidence. So have others.
You said; "So Jefferson's attempt to re-edit the bible really doesn't seem all that arrogant in light of those facts... . I think the facts prove otherwise. Consider how frustrating it is FrattLaw when someone alters a Peace Dollar. And a Peace Dollar, no matter how beautiful, is NOT the Bible. I suspect that our angst concerning altered Peace Dollars has more to do with the ARROGANCE of the Coin Doctor rather than the altered Peace dollar itself. I know it does for me. Thanks FrattLaw. I appreciate your input. matteproof.
I understand your comments Rob. They are reasonable. I wish I could tell you that I've done "better." Unfortunately for me, I can't say that I have (I've overpaid for way too many overgraded coins in my day). Thanks! matteproof.
You seem quite well versed and read in biblical studies. Can you name for me the passage, script, verse, in which Jesus actually killed a man. I can't remember which it was, but it was removed by the Catholic church from the NT approximately 700 years ago. Those are the edits I'm specifically addressing. The fact that Mary Magdalin (sp?) was left in was quite amazing, but for the most part prositution didn't have quite the stigma it has today.
Michael
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Michael
It would be like criticizing you for using petrolium-based plastic in your slabs for your registry sets, even though you designed a famous System, for future generations, to collect coins in a more environmentally-friendly way. If I was to judge the success of your System, and give you credit for it, it would be silly to discredit you on its construction because you were using slabs that were still made with plastic that's a byproduct of petrolium and sent to you in a box that kills trees.
Jefferson is not a hypocrit for a Constitution that's main goal is to limit the size and scope of the Fed, keeping the balance of power with the People to help ensure freedom -- because he engaged in something that was yet to be fixable or culturally unacceptable.
The Founders were revolutionary, and came up with a System of Government that changed the course of freedom forever, including those of Slaves. I believe this struggle with freedom for all is why they declared a 20 year hold off on addressing Slavery in the Constitution. Think of that -- men with slaves revolutionary enough to debate it, wanting to end it, as some did for themselves, actually getting to the point where they had to mention in the Constitution an assurance to those who wanted Slavery that the Fed wouldn't bother them for 20 years on it. Never before had the institution of slavery been so questioned and debated, so threatened, and seriously considered for termination on principle. However, there was far too much opposition in society for something like -- it would be worse than expecting you to get rid of television, dogs, cars, guns, and phones. It was a moral, economic, and social dilemma to say the least. However, these men cut a deal and embedded in the Constitution a big seed. In Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution, they wrote that Congress is prevented from stopping the importing of slaves before 1808:
"The migration or importation of such persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit shall not be prohibited by the Congress, prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person."
The link below is a webpage I found that gives one comprehensive take on the Founding Fathers and slavery, perhaps you will enjoy it. They state that "In fact, one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British." Check it out and let me know what you think:
Slavery and the Founders
But , Really thanks to the Founders and their utopian visions of social and polictical perfection, we now live in the most
just society the world has ever seen before.
Ok The Roman Empire comes in a distant 2nd,.......hmmm the history of the Greeks is extremely fasinating and the whole world gained much from their culture. They WERE the roots of whole western civilization.
You said; " But this is no different then what so many other religions and preachers have done before him and since. They focus attention to the verses and script they find most compelling, leaving the rest unmentioned." I agree. As I stated in one of my previous posts, there are many religionists (and others) who have tainted and altered the Bible in an attempt to promote their own wrong doctrines or agendas. Jefferson was one of those men. Remarkably, it was THOSE men that Jefferson despised, yet he became one of them himself!
You said; " You seem quite well versed and read in biblical studies. Can you name for me the passage, script, verse, in which Jesus actually killed a man..." The text you refer to is NOT in the original inspired text (i.e. the Bible). It comes from the so-called "secret gospel of thomas." This "recently discovered" writing (portions of the book were discovered in Egypt about 100 years ago) are not considered authorative or "inspired" (part of the Bible) by anyone serious. A debate concerning it does exist, but only to the extent of it's "historical" meaning (similar to the writings of Josephus). Proponents of the writing believe it was derived from "oral tradition," however this would be impossible because the document has been dated to the mid 2nd Century A.D. By then, "oral tradition" had already been supplanted by the authoritative Biblical text . Furthermore, the book is very dependent upon Biblical text, illustrating that it came later. Of course, neither "thomas" or Josephus" have anything to do with original inspired text of the Bible itself. ANY alteration of the original text is an affront that causes confusion - whether done by Jefferson, ancient scribes, or disoriented religionists.
You said; " The fact that Mary Magdalin (sp?) was left in was quite amazing, but for the most part prositution didn't have quite the stigma it has today." The Bible does not say that Mary Magdalene was a "prostitute." It says; "And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, " (Luke 8: 2). The "myth" of Magdalene being a prostitute results from a hyper-sexualized view of women throughout the ages. Thankfully, the inerrant Bible shows us the truth. There is no possible read of the text that can fairly support the idea of "prostitution" (though I would NOT have a problem with it if it did). Prostitutes deserve societal love and nurturing just as readily as any so-called "cultured" women. One does not have preeminence over the other. Finally, the Bible depicts Mary Magdalene as being a woman of profound faith, such that she herself was the FIRST to physically see the "risen Christ" (Mark 16: 9).
Nevertheless, you raise a great point. Jesus Christ DID associate with societal "outcasts." He also associated with the "elite" and was not afraid to confront phonies and hypocrites when warranted. Jesus rescued the exploited. He reached out to embrace those who were hurting, suffering, sorrowful, lonely, unwanted and disenfranchised. The ONE quality that most of these "outcasts" shared was HUMILITY. Sadly, too many religionists (like society itself) are often severely lacking the beautiful fruit of humility.
Last thought; I agree with your observation that modern society often "stigmatizes" and are less caring of the exploited than they should be. This is to our shame and sorrow. Yet, through GOD's mercy and grace, each one of us has been given the highest earthbound gift imaginable: the power to bring true comfort and peace to those who are without hope. There is NOTHING more important than that - not even an 1804 Dollar in a PCGS PR70 slab. Thanks frattLaw.
<< <i>
The link below is a webpage I found that gives one comprehensive take on the Founding Fathers and slavery, perhaps you will enjoy it. They state that "In fact, one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British." Check it out and let me know what you think:
Slavery and the Founders >>
Hi FoundingFather. Thank you for your comments and thoughts. I very much appreciate them. I will definitely check out the link. Thanks!
<< <i>anyway,its boiled down to a debate as to whether Jefferson was an arrogant asp revising the Bible to suit his own means,or just `being true to the times`.
>>
Hi Cam40. I think your right. Thanks!
~Michael
<< <i>I just utterly impressed with your knowledge. Thank you!
~Michael >>
Thank you Michael. I appreciate it very much
It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman and in a wide house. - Proverbs 25:24
Even with those we may disagree with, we,re all one big family.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the post, even if its not THAT coin-related, and also the direction
it sorta took.
This thread could go in so many great directions.
Fantastic.
Thanks all.
We owe a debt of gratitude to all the Founders. As far as Jefferson and Adams are concerned I heard an interesting comment by a man that knows the history of both individuals very well; David McCulloch the author of the book "John Adams" (an excellent book I highly recommend to those interested in this period of history). He actually began his research with the intention of writing a book contrasting Jefferson's and Adam's views on life, government and politics. Jefferson is much more well known and lauded of the two but as McCulloch got more involved in his research he realized that Adam's contribution towards the independence of the U.S. and the formation and preservation of our government during those early years has been grossly under appreciated in some respect dwarfs those of Jefferson. During his research McCulloch finally reach the point where he decided to devote the entire book to Adams and his contributions towards bringing about independence and creating the form of government that has afford freedoms to it's citizens that are unparalleled.
P.S. Adams was one of the few Founding Fathers that never owned slaves and strongly repudiated the practice of slavery. But he also understood as our own FF has detailed that there was no way the Constitution would be ratified with a provision that abolished slavery. The Founders put that off into the future hoping that the nation at a later day could deal with the issue and survive the effort. They enacted a provision that would end the importation of slaves in 1808 and hoped that the following generations could work out a way to end the practice all together without tearing the nation apart. Seventy years later the opinions on ending the practice of slavery was still so hotly divisive the issue almost succeeded in tearing the nation apart. The Founders used wisdom in trying to balance doing what was right with what was doable at the time.
P.P.S. Yes...Adams on a larger dollar coin!
that DID tear our nation apart for a time.
As you stated pmh1nic, perhaps they did know such a thing WOULD happen and just hoped their work
on the whole would win the day, and that we would make it through.
.......yup....we,re still here arent we.
Ya . They knew.
What was an uncomfortable and embarrasing problem back then was competing with the
problem of going to war with the most powerful nation on earth. The issue came to a head
90 years later and was resolved at the cost of many thousands of lives.
My mother's great-great grandfather fought for the confederacy and my father's great-
great grandfather fought and died at Gettysburg in the Union Army. I personally feel no
great shame or pride about my heritage. That was the way history unfolded and I can only
hope that progress was made and will continue to be made by cooler heads so I can be
free to continue to collect coins or whatever I choose to do without harm to others.
Thanks again for your accurate and concise contribution.