The 1844 hoard of dimes finally comes to market

JoyofCollecting · July 3, 2003 4:40PM

Anyone else notice that the Heritage auction includes one lot containing 612 (that's right six hundred and twelve) 1844 dimes in AG to AU condition?

I've been hearing about that hoard for years....and put off buying that date because I was worried about such a hoard. I

It will be interesting to see what happens to the price of this date in the next twenty-four months. Any speculation?

Coppernicus · July 3, 2003 4:44PM

Well, the easy answer is prices should drop. But, how is the mix between AG and AU? More "bottom heavy" or "top heavy?" The MS end of the price distribution should be safe in any event.

Do you know where this hoard came from? You said you had heard rumors of such a hoard.

Mike

JoyofCollecting · July 3, 2003 4:50PM

Some guy out in California....had an open offer to buy the dimes for years in the Coin World at bid. Many dealers would just send their coins to him. A number of dealers at shows have told me over the last couple of years that they just send the coins to him. The distribution is bottom-heavy of course....but even a decent VF has been selling for $1,000+ in recent years. So, introducing 40 to 50 EF+ coins to the market will most certainly have an across the board impact. I think only a few are known in mint state.

Baley · July 3, 2003 5:54PM

interesting question. also interesting, what will the lot hammer at?
$100,000? 200? 3? more??

Cam40 · July 3, 2003 7:03PM

What would the same number of `16 D Mercs be worth in comparison.

And how much rarer are these to those.

Also supply / demand ratio between the two series.

kranky · July 3, 2003 9:07PM

Interesting. I don't recall ever hearing about a hoard getting sold as a hoard. It's hard to believe that you could get full value selling that way.

geb209 · July 3, 2003 10:13PM

Reserve will not even come close to being met. No one in their right mind would buy a hoard of 1844s, most of which are AG/G. This is the wrong way to sell these coins.

jbsteven · July 3, 2003 10:35PM

I remember someone talking on the boards about the 1844's a few months ago. maybe it was coinguy1??????

keep us posted on the results

JoyofCollecting · July 3, 2003 10:53PM

GEB: I agree this is the wrong way to sell the coins.

JB: I dug up the thread you were talking about and brought it back to life about 2:00 this morning. Maybe they're all turned to rainbow tones over the years.

More thoughts: Given how this coin was hyped back in the 20's/30's and without a rational explanation for why it would be so much more rare than other dates of similar mintages at that time....is it possible that there is more than one large hoard? It would be interesting to hear the really old timers' perspective on this coin.

Take care.

Mark

EVillageProwler · July 4, 2003 12:59AM

These Orphan Annie coins, as they are nicknamed, is being hoarded by someone whom every Seated specialist knows. Many years ago, this date was only considered scarce. Now, due to the hoarding, the price has gone up to a point where the coin should be considered rare. But, the truth of the matter is that the hoarder is the only person driving up the prices.

He built up a one-person market, while the rest of us were content to sit back and watch how this played out.

I am not a fan of this guy, as he screwed a friend of mine a couple of years ago. Still, he'll probably have some sort of a reserve and use this opportunity to build up an artificial auction price history.

EVP

MrEureka · July 4, 2003 1:55AM

Interesting. It seems to me that the entire hoard could easily have been sold privately and quietly to a retailer. Nobody else would have known how many were available and the coins would have sold well individually. Selling it publicly makes things more difficult for the buyer. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

MrEureka · July 4, 2003 1:59AM

he'll probably ... use this opportunity to build up an artificial auction price history.

That's a pretty wild stretch, don't you think? He could have done THAT more effectively with a dozen coins in various grades. The auction fees would also have been a lot cheaper!

Barry · July 4, 2003 2:17AM

The only thing dumber than creating the hoard is trying to sell it intact. There's no way anyone who buys it can make money from it. Either he keeps it, and the coin stays a well-known false rarity, which discourages buyers, or he sells them off one by one, and the prices start coming down. The 1844 in my seated dime set is the lowest grade coin in the set. If and when the hoard is dissipated, I'll upgrade.

Coinosaurus · July 4, 2003 2:23AM

See the March 1999 Numismatist, online at:

http://www.money.org/publications/orphan_annie1.pdf

Tells you everything you want to know about the 1844 dime.

MrEureka · July 4, 2003 2:31AM

There's no way anyone who buys it can make money from it.

Depends on the price, doesn't it? I'll probably bid.

Barry · July 4, 2003 2:32AM

Good luck!

topstuf · July 4, 2003 3:08AM

Andy, when you get 'em......please, please, PLEASE sell me one. Hang the price! I don't care. I will pay ANYTHING!

I can't tell you how long I have been yearning for an 1844 dime...in ANY ...condition.

I intend to build a shrine to it.

I don't see how a coin collector could call himself a coin collector without one.

1844 was one of the most important dates in US history. I think it was in 1844 that James Marshall began his plans to discover gold 4 years later in California.

Please please please please. I will need time payments as I have no money but really want an 1844 dime to make my life complete.

MrEureka · July 4, 2003 3:22AM

I have no money but really want an 1844 dime to make my life complete.

I think I'm gonna cry.

keets · July 4, 2003 3:33AM

ROTFLMAO!!!!

1844 was one of the most important dates in US history.

al h.

lathmach · July 4, 2003 4:55AM

I remarked in the other thread that Dave Thomas was the hoarder. I believed this because he was the one buying these up. I have been told he was buying them for someone else, so now I don't have an opinion on who the hoards' owner is.

Ray

oreville · July 4, 2003 5:03AM

Indeed 1844 was one of the most important dates in US numismatic history!!

Look at the facts! 50 years after the 1794 flowing hair dollar, 10 years after the 1804 silver doillar was reputedly minted, etc.

Yes, sir! A date to remember.

But I will take an 1844 dime too.

Coinosaurus · July 4, 2003 6:41AM

No one believes that the 1844 is legitimately rare. The survival rate of the coin is likely 1-2% (700 - 1400 coins), similar to contemporary seated coinage. It is very tough in Unc.

The gentleman who was hoarding these has been at it since the 1980s. The hype generated by Frank Coe Ross in the 1930s and 40s had by and large waned by then and would have died off completely had it not been for this hoard. By then the 1844s were cheap and many of these were purchased at bargain prices. By the mid-90s most everyone knew something was up and the prices started getting much higher.

I suspect that this is not the whole hoard, since I know that the Eliasberg coin (gem proof, $88K hammer) was also in the same group.

JoyofCollecting · July 18, 2003 12:02PM

I see the minimum bid for the hoard is $158,000. Interesting.

MrEureka · July 18, 2003 12:39PM

I see the minimum bid for the hoard is $158,000. Interesting.

I'll bet anyone a beer that this lot will sell at or above 158K.

Coinosaurus · July 18, 2003 12:40PM

There are an awful lot of clunkers in this lot, it will be interesting to see if it even makes reserve. I would like to have exactly ONE of them, & would have paid a premium to get it. Seems like they may have done better by breaking it up.

kamehameha00 · July 18, 2003 12:41PM

does anyone have a link that leads to this page? thanks
kame

Wharptones · July 18, 2003 11:29PM

Hey gang. As was mentioned earlier, most serious Liberty Seated collectors know who owns the hoard of 1844 "Orphan Annie" dimes. The date itself waas always moderately scarce yet affordable. Then the hoarding began in the mid to late 80s, and the coin was eventually selling for five or more times graysheet when a new specimen appeared. The hoarder was paying great prices, which enticed anyone who owned one to funnel it to or friend. Back in '89 or '90 I found an 1844 dime love token (!), never holed or mounted (!!), and then eventually traded it to the hoarder for $300 cash and a near Mint State 1893/2 Barber dime with "Mother" and a scene on the reverse. The point of all this? When that love token comes on the market, let me know!

Wharptones · July 18, 2003 11:33PM

Oh, one other thing. I believe it was 1844 when Millard Fillmore passed gas at his inaugural and blamed it on Old Hickory, although that may be 1840, have to check on it!

tjkillian · July 19, 2003 12:09AM

<< <i> I'll bet anyone a beer that this lot will sell at or above 158K. >>

I'll take you up on that offer. $258 each on average??? Some could be worth that much, but not ALL, on average.

Tom

geb209 · July 19, 2003 1:18AM

Ill bet a 6-pack that they dont even come close to making reserve. Who would bid on a lot of mainly AG-G 1844s? Nobody!

wondercoin · July 19, 2003 1:20AM

Geez - talk about rising "modern" pops

Wondercoin

EVillageProwler · July 19, 2003 1:55AM

Geez - talk about rising "modern" pops

The 3rd-party pop movement on this coin won't really do much, since pretty much everyone, except for the folks who publish the so-called price guides, already knew that this guy was hoarding the coin and artificially driving up the price on himself. (Yes, that last bit is a puzzler to me too!)

Also, there is a wide range of quality in this offering, as well as with the entirety of the hoard. Certainly no one should presume that the bulk of this material will of a quality commensurate with a connoisseur's expectations.

All in all, I find this pretty exciting to see how this guy's hoarding of a coin that is only moderately scarce in absolute terms will play out...

I know him and dislike him. I will not wish him well, but also will not wish him ill.

EVP

wondercoin · July 19, 2003 2:20AM

"this guy was hoarding the coin and artificially driving up the price on himself. (Yes, that last bit is a puzzler to me too!)"

I personally can't see this being to any "hoarder's" advantage, absent one hoarding a coin of great absolute rarity. For example, I have heard of someone hoarding J-1690 Pattern 1882 Proof Transitional Liberty nickels. In doing so, prices have risen sharply, either directly or indirectly. Here is a coin with maybe a mintage of roughly 3 dozen specimens. That "hoarding" might well pay off big time, especially if Liberty nickel patterns get even hotter, collectors of proof Liberty nickels incorporate the 1882 proof in their sets (like they have incorporated 1956 Flying Eagles) and/or collectors start pursuing more aggressively transitional coins. Yes, I can see hoarding J-1690's. On the other hand, 1844 circulated Seated Dimes - can't see it

Wondercoin

EVillageProwler · July 19, 2003 2:58AM

Yes, I can see hoarding J-1690's. On the other hand, 1844 circulated Seated Dimes - can't see it

Nor can I. But, then again, I can't get inside that guy's head either...

BTW, the Pennsylvania Cabinet had a number of 1882-dated Lib nick patterns... if I recall.

EVP

shirohniichan · July 19, 2003 3:11AM

<< <i>I remarked in the other thread that Dave Thomas was the hoarder. I believed this because he was the one buying these up. I have been told he was buying them for someone else, so now I don't have an opinion on who the hoards' owner is.

Ray >>

When the purported hoarder inquired about some CC dimes I was selling, I tactlessly responded, "Oh, you're the one hoarding the 1844 dimes, aren't you?" He just nervously laughed and told me no.

Coinosaurus · July 19, 2003 3:24AM

I don't believe that the hoarder did this to make a profit. He just thought that it was a "cool" thing to do. He was well aware that dealers were taking advantage of him to a certain extent, and did, upon occassion, turn down 1844s when he thought the asking price was excessive. He readily admits that he is not an expert grader & that he is not really interested in any 1844 die varieties (by the way, there are none) or in any other scientific numismatic study of his hoard (a la what was done with the 1857-S $20s in the Central America hoard). For whatever reason, he just thought it would be "neat" to own all the 1844s. I also think it would be neat

But I would handle the dispersion of the hoard much differently than this - I think one could do much better than by unloading them all at one shot.

JoyofCollecting · July 21, 2003 8:35AM

It looks like Mr. Eureka owes TJkillian a beer.

The minimum bid was $158,000. With six bids made, the bid is now at $160,000 which means about $184,000 with the juice.

I'm too am amazed Mr. Eureka. Fortunately, I'm fairly young and can wait several years for the hoard to be disbursed and prices to fall to equilibrium.

MrEureka · July 21, 2003 8:46AM

It looks like Mr. Eureka owes TJkillian a beer.

You've got that backwards! Getting thirsty just thinking about it!

JoyofCollecting · July 21, 2003 9:36AM

Andy,

You're right...I got that backwards. You're owed the beer. I often get things a$$ backwards.

sinin1 · July 21, 2003 9:40AM

I bet Mr Eureka made that bet because he is bidding on this lot and knows it can be marketed/sold in a much better method than is being used - good luck if you get it, you can continue the collection/hoard for the next 30 years for your retirement

tjkillian · July 21, 2003 11:09AM

I just went to the Heritage site and it says the current bid is $157.500 and the next bid, if there is one, would be $160,000. Technically, I've not lost the bet just yet as the minimum bid has not yet been reached. I am still confident that I shall win.

Tom

MrEureka · July 21, 2003 11:17AM

you can continue the collection/hoard for the next 30 years for your retirement

Thanks, but no thanks!

I'm disappointed that I haven't won yet, but looking forward to my ultimate victory!

JoyofCollecting · July 27, 2003 2:44AM

Someone let us know the price (including the juice) when the final hammer falls.

Thanks.

The 1844 hoard of dimes finally comes to market

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